The Voice of Gor

Presentation at the En’Kara Fair [2026, edited] by Rarius Yuroki (Yuroki Uriza), merchant and owner of the House of Yuroki Bank, Oasis of Lame Kaiila

Greetings Goreans, welcome to the presentation about coins on Gor and how to handle them.

Here is the content again:
1. What do we know about coins on Gor?
2. Hud coins versus prim coins
3. Which coins already exist in Secondlife Gor?
4. Role-playing with coins; ideas, suggestions and tips
5. Slaves and coins

^{Two Gorean coins merchants attempt to determine the exchange rates of coins an the En’Kara Fair}

1. What do we know about coins on Gor?

The good news first: There is very little standardization of exchange rates on Gor. At every Sardar Fair, the money traders attempt to propose standardization, but their proposal fails every time. (Har har! Do not even try it now!)

Not enough good news – and I’ll explain why that’s good news in a moment: Specific exchange rates vary from city to city and region to region.

Between twenty and four tarsks make one copper tarsk. Between ten and one hundred copper tarsks make one silver tarsk. However, it seems to be standard practice for ten silver tarsks to equal one gold tarn. A double gold tarn is worth the same as two single gold tarns. Eight pieces of Tarsk make one copper Tarsk, one hundred copper Tarsk make one silver Tarsk, and ten silver Tarsk make one gold Tarsk. In Port Kar and the Vosk Delta, ten pieces of Tarsk are exchanged for one copper Tarsk and 100 copper Tarsk for one silver Tarsk.

Your are already confused, arent’ you?

Do you want more confusion? Here we go:

10 Copper Tarsks = 1 Silver Tarsk
“There are one hundred copper tarsks to one silver tarsk in Kailiauk. The ratio is ten to one in certain other cities and towns.”
Savages of Gor, Page 120
BUT:
40 Copper Tarsks = 1 Silver Tarsk
“The tarsk is a silver coin, worth forty copper tarn disks.”
Assassin of Gor, Page 160

Coin Denomination	Book	Book Number	Page
Copper Tarsk Bit “shaving”	Swordsmen of Gor	29	298
Copper Tarsk Bit “piece”	Conspirators of Gor	31	403
Copper Tarsk Bit	Beasts of Gor	12	77
Copper Tarsk	Tribesmen of Gor	10	36
Copper Tarn	Outlaw of Gor	2	68
Copper Ten-Piece	Rogue of Gor	15	126
Copper Twenty-Piece	Conspirators of Gor	31	186
Copper Forty-Piece	Assassin of Gor	5	27–28
Copper Eighty-Piece	Assassin of Gor	5	27–28
“Smaller” Silver Tarsk	Prize of Gor	27	488
“Larger” Silver Tarsk	Kajira of Gor	19	407
Silver Tarn	Tarnsman of Gor	1	165
Silver Forty-Piece	Assassin of Gor	5	157
Silver Eighty-Piece	Assassin of Gor	5	107
Silver Stater	Swordsmen of Gor	29	132
Gold Tarsk	Smugglers of Gor	32	522
Gold Tarn	Tribesmen of Gor	10	158
Gold Stater	Kajira of Gor	19	394
Gold Tarn of Double Weight	Assassin of Gor	5	4

Result: Norman’s books do not provide clear norms regarding the value of coins, only general trends. I recommend to make it simple:
8 Tarsk Bits = 1 Copper Tarsk
100 Copper Tarsk = 1 Silver Tarsk
10 Silver Tarsk = 1 Gold Tarn
2 Gold Tarn = Double Gold Tarn

Why is this confusion good news?

Quite simply: because bankers and coin merchants now have something to do. They have to determine the value of coins being exchanged by strangers. They have to identify counterfeit coins. They might even have to mint coins themselves. You can’t do that yourself; you need a professional because you lack the knowledge: “I was not always as knowledgeable as I might be about the relative values of various coins, of numerous cities, which, of course, depended on such things as compositions and weights, and exchange rates, which might fluctuate considerably.” (Magicians of Gor, Page 411)

Here we are! The coin merchants are a sub-caste of the merchant caste. We know everything about coins! And not only that: we know how to draw up a loan agreement on Gor, how to spot counterfeit coins, we know ….shhhhhhhh….. who to bribe to gain influence.

^{A Gorean coin merchant steps hard on a warrior’s toes because the warrior wanted to pay with invisible coins}

2. Hud coins versus prim coins

Now the bad news: Nobody plays it that way, nobody wants to be a coin merchant. (Except for me, of course.) Why?

We need to briefly digress into the past of the Gorean roleplay, for example:
Gorm Runo: “I first became aware of online Gor in 1998.”
Gorm Runo: “It was in a chatroom in Yahoo Chat called the Three Moons Tavern of Gor.”

Roleplaying in forums means: you can’t rez or see anything and have to emote everything. So anyone could be a millionaire on Gor, they just had to use emotes. That was also the case at the beginning of Second Life: there were coins you could rez, but they were copyable, like the Yen coins that still exist today on on the Secondlife marketplace.

If someone wants to be a millionaire instantly:: Here you can see the copyable Yen coins. The surface and the (illegible) lettering are the same on all coins, only the color of the coins varies. They are available here: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/YEN-Coins-Ingots-2/2602286

(If something like that is offered to me in character, my bank will only pay “the value of the metal”.)

That only changed when the Gorean meter introduced hud coins, which could be used, for example, to buy one’s freedom from capture. This was simple and convenient, but of course unrealistic because it’s OOC and the coins are not visible.

This hasn’t changed with the zCS HUD coins. They are simply a unit of account used to determine the OOC exchange value of virtual products.

^{[13:02] Marcus Attilius (badass.sciarri): What are you doing in my bed?
[13:02] Torm (niceshortbeard.jinxing): I am having sex with your slave…
[13:02] Marcus Attilius (badass.sciarri): But you are alone?!
[13:02] Torm (niceshortbeard.jinxing): I emoted her! (Emoters of Gor, pg. 87)}

Here is the most important quote:

To be sure, there is little standardization in these matters, for much depends on the actual weights of the coins and the quantities of precious metals, certified by the municipal stamps, contained in the coins. Sometimes, too, coins are split or shaved. Further, the debasing of coinage is not unknown. Scales, and rumors, it seems, are often used by coin merchants. One of the central coins on Gor is the golden tarn disk of Ar, against which many cities standardize their own gold piece. (pg. 155, Rogue of Gor.)

Can you see municipal stamps on hud coins? No

Can you see the origin of a coin in hud coins, for example, something from Ar? No.

Could one compare the coins from Ar with the coins from Olni using hud coins? No.

But you can do all that with prim coins: you can rez them and read what’s written on the surface.

Of course, you could just emote all of that, but that inevitably leads to drama because I’d accuse anyone whose coin I couldn’t see of counterfeiting. And on my sim, that person would be arrested. Just for fun.

^{Notecard “Foreign Currency Exchange Rates (HoY bank)”, updated monthly, also includes screenshots of all existing prim coins (click to enlarge)}

3. Which coins already exist in Secondlife Gor?

Since 2011, I’ve made non-copyable coins for around 30 sims. Over 80 (!) sims have made their own non-copyable coins so far, for example, Olni or Belnend. Why does hardly anyone use them? Most of them no longer exist, but where all the coins? Admittedly, I traded all the coins I could get for mine in roleplay, but there must still be countless coins lying around in some inventory.

^{Copper Tarsk bit of Port Cos, City of Ar 1 copper tarks bit (HoY bank), Argentum copper tarks bit, made by Brock Alcove (peko.alcove) (including a script: “Argentum 1 Copper tarsk Bit 6: This is Official Argentum Coin”)}

The smallest unit is a copper tarks bit (aboce): “A copper coin worth from 1/4 to 1/20 of a copper tarks, depending on the original value of the coins and how that coin has seen segmented. The usaul numer of Tarsk-hits in a coppaer tarks tends to be eight.- In Port Kar and the Vosl basin region, there are ten tarksbits to a copper tarks.”.

So? Do you have copper Tarks bits in your hud? No, you don’t.

^{Hochburg 1 copper tarks made by Drusus Tacitus (rowan00), Hazelwood 1 copper tarsk made by beth (jood.mckee) (very rare!), Port Kar 1 copper, Venna 1 copper, Tarnwald 1 copper tarks /HoY mint)}

A copper coin that is the whole coin of least value, equalling upt to twenty tarsk bits, though more typically, eight. The copper tarsks of Ar, for instance, are designed to be separated into eight sections.

A copper tarsk: “In many paga taverns, one may have paga and food, and a girl for the alcove, if one wants for a single copper tarsk”.

Since 2007, we have received many suggestions on how to convert the value, for example to the dollar; these range from 70 cents for one copper tarsk to 15 dollars for one copper tarsk.

^{1 silver tarn from Cartius, Holmesk, Tharna, City of Ar, Anango (HoY Mint) Port sun made by Pippi Moonites (Pippi.moonites), Hochburg made by Drusus Tacitus (rowan00), Torvaldsland (without mention of location) made by Ivar Longbeard (ivar.eberhardt)}

A silver tarsk: “ten silver tarsks, such a sum would last a man months on Gor”.

How much are the silver coins worth? The highest amount proposed is 1500 US dollars. I consider that unrealistic.

“My financial resources, the ten silver tarsks, such a sum would last a man months on Gor” (Rogue of Gor, p.59). The average American worker earns $5,000 per month, which would be 10 silver tarsks. One silver tarks is therefore worth US approximately 500 US$. That would mean that 1 copper task is worth approximately 5 US dollars. For a copper task, one could therefore buy a hamburger.

^{1 gold tarn from Torvickburg, made by 丂in ßLøøÐαXe (sinder.ariantho), 1 gold tarn from City of Ar, Kasra, Jasmine, Oasis of Sand Sleen, Turmus, 1 doble gold tarn from Besnit and Piedmont (HoY mint)}

Gold tarn and a doble gold tarn: “A gold tarn disk is more than many common laborers earn in a year” (approximately 50.000 $) With a gold tarn coin, you can buy a war tarn; the coin is therefore worth about as much as a car in real life.

^{“But how could one spend the coins, and on what?”}

2. Role-playing with coins; ideas, suggestions and tips

– The biggest problem is not getting coins, but spending them.

I only recommend using prim coins for specific actions; for example, escorting free women traveling by mercenaries, buying and selling slaves, paying assassins (not everyone can afford that! And hud coins are therefore totally ridiculous).

I recently experienced this myself: a group from the black caste, whom I had hired as mercenaries, wanted hud coins as payment. What’s the next thing you want to hear? A killer demands Lindendollars? Absolute nonsense.

It’s less advisable to use prim coins in taverns or cafes, as this becomes cumbersome and confusing, and visitors are not allowed to rez coins on melee-only sims. Even wages paid to caste members didn’t work – it’s too complicated and quickly becomes boring. Taxes shouldn’t be enforced either, because that overwhelms people. Believe me, I’ve been making coins since 2011, and it’s never worked – people just left the sim.

What does work very well, however, is this: trading companies and independent slave houses should pay taxes to the council or the Admin/Ubar and also provide a written report of their transactions (roleplaying possibilities for scribes, magistrates, merchants, etc.). I would insist that payment be made with prim coins, so that one can be sure of not being given “counterfeit” money.

^{Two Gorean Free Women accuse each other of having paid with counterfeit money.}

The sim owner must support you, but prim coins should never be mandatory, only an option to make roleplaying more realistic. If a sim owner tries to force you into out-of-character (OOC) activities by only allowing hud coins, I would recommend to leave this sim. There are about 150, and they’re all looking for players. A sim owner who hinders roleplaying for merchants instead of promoting it doesn’t deserve support.

– Coin exchange: Regardless of which coins you are offered (copyable or non-copyable), to exchange them for valid and certified coins: you need a scale and a silver and gold coin from Ar (you can get these from me; they show the coat of arms of the city of Ar, which consisted of four Sims). Certified means: you can see on the surface where it comes from. If someone offers me copyable coins, or if I can’t recognize their origin in roleplay, I’ll pay the value of the “metal” (endless roleplay possibilities).

^{A warrior could not pay his debts to the bank and was put in chains.}

– Loans: In the small board you will find a notecard for a draft of a Tabularum obsignatione. Tabularum obsignatione was an IOU (acknowledgement of debt) in ancient Rome. Nexum was a debt bondage contract in the early Roman Republic. Don’t forget the witnesses:
“These papers are certified by the bank of Bemus in Venna, and are witnessed by the signatures of two citizens of that city.”
(Fighting Slave of Gor)

If someone borrows coins and doesn’t pay them back within a certain timeframe: call your slaver! He’ll have something to do!

^{Coin Girl of Gor}

5.Slaves and coins

Generally, slaves were not allowed to touch coin. They could be punished severely, even to the point of having their hands cut off, for having unauthorized money on their person or in their belongings. This, in other words, was touching money without authorization.

However, slaves were often given money to run errands, go shopping, to give to their owners, etc. This money could be carried in a bag tied around their necks, in their mouths or carried in their hands. (Even the free carried coins in the mouth because most Gorean clothes have no pockets). The difference between this and the previous statement is that they were authorized to have the money.

Slaves could touch coins in Gor, as long as they had the permission of their owners to do so. (fore quotes read the notecard: “slaves and coins” in the small board)

“Coin girls” were sent out by their Masters with coin boxes and bells to earn him money for her use.

Coin girls were a form of street slave, usually sent into the streets around dusk by their masters, who commonly own several of them, with a chain on their neck, to which would be attached, normally, a bell, to call attention to their whereabouts, and a small, locked coin box. And woe to the girl who returns with coins jangling in the box! To be sure, in some places, one might even have a paga slave, or a brothel slave, for as little as a tarsk bit.
(Renegades of Gor)

“The girl did not now, of course, carry a purse. Slave girls are not permitted to carry such things. When shopping she carries the coins usually in her mouth or hand. Sometimes she ties them in a scarf about a wrist or ankle. Sometimes her master places them in a bag, which is then tied about her neck. Gorean garments, generally, incidentally, except for the garments of craftsmen, do not have pockets. Coins, and personal items, and such, are usually, by free persons, carried in pouches, which are usually concealed within the robes of a free woman, or slung about the waist, or shoulder, of a free man.” (Guardsman of Gor),

We’ve reached the end of my presentation. If you need any help, or if you’d like me (= the House of Yuroki Mint) to make you some coins, just let me know.

Thank you so much for your patience and for listening.

^{Astorette Novi}

Poisons part I in for the kill

Presentation at the En’Kara Fair [2026, edited] by Astorette Novi, Physician, teacher and mentor, Ravenshold

[05:01] Astorette Novi: this talk is given with quotes to back up statements made and are the thoughts and opinions of the speaker and not a representation of the caste of Physicians of Gor

The Ost

[05:02] Astorette Novi: The ost is the most deadly creature in gor. it is small and the only thing that warns you of the danger is its bright orangey yellow colour with black bands. It is about a foot long. Usually found in the tahari. Or if from the uschendi red with black bands.

[05:02] Astorette Novi: “The banded ost is a variety of ost, a small, customarily brilliant orange reptile. It is exceedingly poisonous. The banded ost is a yellowish orange and is marked with black rings.” (Assassin of Gor pg. 335)

[05:02] Astorette Novi: “The ost is usually an orange snake, but these were Ushindi osts, which are red with black stripes. Anatomically, and with respect to toxin, I am told they are almost identical to the common ost.” (Explorers of Gor pg. 239)

[05:03] Astorette Novi: Death happens in seconds and there is no cure mostly because there is no time to even give an antidote to the victim. It is the worst most painful death possible, no way to rp as there is no time death comes fast and painfully.

[05:03] Astorette Novi: “One to be feared even more perhaps was the tiny ost, a venomous, brilliantly orange reptile little more than a foot in length, whose bite spelled an excruciating death within seconds.” (Outlaw of Gor pg. 26)

[05:04] Astorette Novi: There is no doubting what killed the victim the orange colour of his face in death is unique.

[05:04] Astorette Novi: “I was scarcely aware of the brief whimpering of the Paravaci as, twisting and turning on the rug, biting at it, holding his arm, his flesh turning orange from ost venom, he writhed and died.” …I saw the contorted, now – orange, twisted, agonized face. Already, it looked like colored paper and peeling, as though lit and burned from inside. There were drops of blood and sweat on it.” (Nomads of Gor pg. 318)

[05:05] Astorette Novi: Because there is no shortage of information on this snake we now the effects of a bite from it and how painful for the few seconds it takes to die it is.

[05:06] Astorette Novi: “Then suddenly, from in front of me, in the darkness, I heard a hideous cry of pain. Then I heard a wild, piteous shriek which terminated in spasmodic coughing and gasping. I heard fingernails scratching at a wooden surface and the turning and thrashing of a body.” …”I looked to the round, shallow, circular pit in the center of the room. It was about a foot deep. The poles supporting the sleeping platform were set within it. In the pit, his hands still clutching, fingernails bloody, at one of the round poles supporting the platform, lay an askari. His body was twisted horribly, and contorted. The flesh had turned a blackish orange and, in places, had broken open, the skin peeling back like burned paper. A knife, fallen, lay near him in the pit. About his body, small, nervous, sinuous, crawled tiny snakes. osts.” (Explorers of Gor pg. 238-239)

[05:08] Astorette Novi: This is a rarely seen narrow, dark snake abut five feet long with a small triangular head its poison is thought to be deadly but by no means as deadly as the ost. It is usually found in the delta. The marsh moccasin has no known cure and any symptoms have not been recorded. Despite this it is believed that FW may have been thrown to them as a form of execution. The only information we have comes in two quotes the first of which i have separated into two..

[05:08] Astorette Novi: We saw a narrow, dark shape, about five feet long, like a slowly undulating whip, glide past. A small triangular head was almost level with the water surface. I did not think there had been much danger, but there was some possibility that the movement of her legs in the water might have attracted its attention.

^{Lady Rose Khaos [Rose Harlow], head physician to the Port City of Olni, see also: “How Gorean Physicians treat a shock and hallucinations, From the NEW VOICE OF GOR v.4 Issue 156. (2014)}

“That is a marsh moccasin,” I said.
“Are they poisonous,” she asked.
“Yes,” I said.
“I never saw one before,” she said.
“They are not common,” I said, “even in the delta.”

[05:09] Astorette Novi: “Are they poisonous, the marsh moccasins, like the ost?” she said.
“They are quite poisonous,” I said, “but their venom, as I understand it, does not compare to that of the ost.”
“Could I survive its bite?” she asked.
“Possibly,” I said. “I do not know.”
Vagabonds of Gor, Book 24, Pages 267 – 268

[05:10] Astorette Novi: “It seems that slaves have various advantages over free women,” she said.
“What did you have in mind?” I asked.
“Not being thrown to marsh moccasins, osts, and such.”
“Presumably not,” I said, “at least if they are pleasing.”
Vagabonds of Gor, Book 24, Page 271

Kanda

[05:11] Astorette Novi: As can be seen from the following quote this plant grows mostly in the tahari region.

[05:11] Astorette Novi: The roots of the kanda plant, which grows largely in desert regions on Gor, are extremely toxic, but, surprisingly, the rolled leaves of this plant, which are relatively innocuous, are formed in ostrings and, chewed or sucked, are much favored by many Goreans, particularly in the southern hemisphere, where the leaf is more abundant. Nomads of Gor, page 43

[05:12] Astorette Novi: it is well documented and is known to be used to coat hairpins or daggers that free women carry for protection. as yet it has not stated what reaction the poison takes though it is believed to possibly be a cousin of earths coca plant

[05:13] Astorette Novi: The leaves which we will not concern ourselves with too much today bring a state of euphoria/numbness that is similar to that of strong analgesics. Personally as a physician i hate kanda and spend a lot of my time searching out crops to be destroyed it makes good rp. From what i have seen of the addiction it is a little like cannabis.

[05:14] Astorette Novi: Kanda is a lethal poison It can be used on a large scale from poisoning a water supply, to, in a white paste form, coated on weapons or even needles.One piece of jewelry mentioned is a ring which, when a tiny switch is pressed, a hollow steel fang springs up containing this deadly toxin

[05:14] Astorette Novi: “a squad of spearmen had reached the main siege reservoir, emptying their barrels of toxic kanda, a lethal poison extracted from one of Gor’s desert shrubs.”
Tarnsman of Gor, Page 179

[05:15] Astorette Novi: “I found a needle; I smelled it; it was smeared with kanda, a deadly toxin”
Tribesmen of Gor, Page 132

[05:16] Astorette Novi: “On the first finger of his left hand he wore a fang ring, which, I had little doubt, would contain a poison, probably that of the deadly kanda plant.”
Explorers of Gor, Page 151

[05:16] Astorette Novi: I have been unable to find a quote that details the symptoms of kanda poisoning

^{Zinkan Dewoitine, retired head physician of Melicerus, see also “Why a new subspecies of the Cosian Wingfish can cause halluzinations, from the NEW VOICE OF GOR v.4 Issue 156 (2014)}

Cosian wingfish

[05:26] Astorette Novi: Also known as ‘song fish’ due to its whistling mating song; a tiny blue saltwater fish with 4 poisonous spines on its dorsal fin. Found in the waters off Port Kar; its liver is considered a delicacy in Turia.

[05:27] Astorette Novi: “The blue, four-spined wingfish is found only in the waters of Cos. Larger varieties are found farther out to sea. The small blue fish is regarded as a great delicacy, and its liver as the delicacies of delicacies.” (Nomads of Gor, page 23)

[05:27] Astorette Novi: The wingfish or songfish can hurl itself out of the water and glide through the air for a short distance on its pectoral fins usually to escape predators. it must make a spectacular sight,

[05:28] Astorette Novi: sounds similer to the pufferfish that Japanese chefs have to be specially trained to prepare and as much a delicacy as cavier on earth.

[05:29] Astorette Novi: “Now this,” Saphrar the merchant was telling me, “is the braised liver of the blue, four-spined Cosian wingfish.” This fish is a tiny, delicate fish, blue, about the size of a tarn disk when curled in one’s hand; it has three or four slender spines in its dorsal fin, which are poisonous; it is capable of hurling itself from the water and for brief distances, on it stiff pectoral fins, gliding through the air, usually to evade smaller sea-tharlarians, which seem to be immune to the poison of the spines. This fish is also at times referred to as the songfish because as a portion of it’s courtship rituals, the males and females thrust their heads from the water and utter a short whistling sound. The blue, four spined wingfish is found only in the waters of Cos. Larger varieties are found further out to sea. The samll blue is regarded a great delicacy, and it’s liver a delicacy of delicacies.” (Nomads of Gor, pg. 84-85)

[05:30] Astorette Novi: Symtoms while not specified are likely to be numbness around the mouth and lips, increased drooling, nausea and vomiting including stomach pain. As time passes these become more severe. Muscle weakness may occur possibly paralysis, difficulty in breathing leading to possible respiratory failure, and in the most severe cases loss of consciousness. These can occur within ten minutes of the poison entering the system.

[05:32] Astorette Novi: Treatment consists of limiting the body’s absorption of the toxin, relieving symptoms, and treating life-threatening complications. There is no known antidote.

^{Jᴜʟɪᴊᴀ Yᴇɢᴏʀᴏᴠᴀ (viixic), Physician of Kargash, working in the infirmary. (2022)}

PART II

Stings and things

[04:58] Astorette Novi: this talk is given with quotes to back up statements made and are the thoughts and opinions of the speaker and not a representation of PCoG

[04:58] Astorette Novi: If you have any questions during the course of this talk please enter @ into main chat and i will get to you as soon as possible

Stingflies

[04:59] Astorette Novi: These were solitary creatures with the exception of their summer season when they come to lay their eggs and the eggs hatch. that had been previously laid.

[05:00] Astorette Novi: “The Sting Fly found in the Vosk Delta also is shown to cause considerable medical complications ranging from blindness to death.” (Vagabonds, pg. 162-169).

[05:00] Astorette Novi: “Once outside the delta the sting flies, which spend most of their adult lives as solitary insects, tend to disperse. Of the millions of sting flies hatched in the delta each summer, usually over a period of four or five days, a few return each fall to begin the cycle again.” …
Vagabonds of Gor pg. 161-176

[05:00] Astorette Novi: “Once outside the delta the sting flies, which spend most of their adult lives as solitary insects, tend to disperse. Of the millions of sting flies hatched in the delta each summer, usually over a period of four or five days, a few return each fall to begin the cycle again.” …
Vagabonds of Gor pg. 161-176

[05:01] Astorette Novi: “There could now be no mistaking the steadily increasing volume of sound approaching from the west. It seemed to fill the delta. It is produced by the movement of wings, the intense, almost unimaginably rapid beating of millions upon millions of small wings.
Vagabonds of Gor pg. 161-176

[05:08] Astorette Novi: They are attracted to the whites of peoples eyes the sting from one raising a large painful lump that can disfigure someone if numerousstings they can kill. One sting is painful beyond belief and is believed to make grown men cry.

[05:09] Astorette Novi: “Needle flies are about! cried a man. Beware! The clouds approach more closely! cried a man. But what are the clouds? cried a fellow. They are needle flies! cried a man. I heard shrieks of pain.” …”My eyes! screamed a man. My eyes! The flies tend to be attracted to the eyes, as to moist, bright objects.” …”The sting of the sting fly is painful, extremely so.”
Vagabonds of Gor pg. 161-176

^{A physician treats a wounded person, Oasis of Klima (2024)}

[05:09] Astorette Novi: There is a set way the venom of the stingfly works first there are the instant swellings in the sting area very painful swellings after being stung by several the accumulative effect of the poison causes nausea. Many more than that is death.

[05:10] Astorette Novi: “depending on the individual, can induce nausea. Men have died from the stings of the flies but usually in such cases they have been inflicted in great numbers. A common reaction to the venom of the fly incidentally is a painful swelling in the area of the sting. A few such stings about the face can render a person unrecognizable. the swelling subsides, usually, in a few ahn.”
Vagabonds of Gor pg. 161-176

[05:12] Astorette Novi: There is just a tiny quote on rennel but it gives a description and an idea of how aggressive they are. when instead of defending the nest it attacked that which destroyed it.

[05:12] Astorette Novi: there is nothing to say how these attack but would think a bite must be pretty bad to turn a caravan of 1000 wagons aside. if they had been a mere annoyance the caravan would have kept going.

[05:13] Astorette Novi: “was told by Kamchak that once an army of a thousand wagons turned aside because a swarm of rennels, poisonous, crablike desert insects, did not defend its broken nest, crushed by the wheel of the lead wagon.”
Nomads of gor

[05:14] Astorette Novi: The next two I have not been able to find more than a few words on.

Rabid bats

[05:15] Astorette Novi: These bats are said to live in caves and can be aggresive they are used by a city to swoop down on the enemy when attacking. This is from memory so if anyone can find the quote i would be grateful. Because there is a cure on earth there will be a cure on gor.

Seaweed, Waters near Schendi

[05:16] Astorette Novi: Many fish in these tropical waters are poisonous to eat, a function of certain forms of seaweed on which they feed. The seaweed is harmless to the fish but it contains substances toxic to humans.

^{Infirmary of the Oasis of Red Rock – Physicians working (2024)}

Sullius Maximus’ Poison Tyros steel

[05:16] Astorette Novi: Sullius Maximus was knowledgable in poisons. One particular use mentioned was paralyzing a man who was an enemy. The unfortunate was paralyzed from the neck down.

[05:17] Astorette Novi: “A contaminant?” I asked. “Poisoned steel,” he said. I said nothing. “Sullius Maximus,” he said, “is in Tyros.” “I would not have thought Saurus of Tyros would have used poisoned steel,” I said. Such a device, like the poisoned arrow, was not only against the codes of the warriors, but, generally, was regarded as unworthy of men. Poison was regarded as a woman’s weapon. Iskander shrugged.”Sullius Maximus, ” he said,” invented such a drug. He tested it, by pin pricks, on the limbs of a captured enemy, paralyzing him from the neck down. He kept him seated at his right side, as a guest in regal robes, for more than a week. When he tired of the sport he had him killed.” “Is there no antidote?” I asked. “No,” said Iskander.
-Marauders of Gor, pg. 18-19

[05:18] Astorette Novi: But after
[05:18] Astorette Novi: “The poison,” said he, “that which lay upon the blades of the men of Sarus of Tyros, lurks yet in your body.” “There is no antidote,” I told him. “This I had from Iskander of Turia, who knew the toxin.” “Warrior,” said the man who stood with Samos, “I bring the antidote.”
-Marauders of Gor, pg. 282

[05:20] Astorette Novi: He removed a vial from his pouch. It contained a purplish fluid.
“Has it been tested?” asked Samos. “On the body of Sullius Maximus,” said Sarus. “On the tenth day, on his arms and legs, and twice, transversely, across his right cheekbone, that his face be scarred and his shame known, I drew the poisoned blade, drawing blood with each stroke.” I smiled. Sullius Maximus was a handsome man, extremely vain, even foppish. He would not appreciate the alteration of his physiognomy, wrought by the blade of Sarus. “Within seconds,” said Sarus, “the spiteful fluid took its effect. The eyes of Sullius were wild with fear. ‘The antidote! The antidote!’ he begged. We sat him in a curule chair, vested as a Ubar, and left him. We wished the poison to work, to be truly fixed within his system. The next day, when the bar of noon was struck on the wharves, we administered to him the antidote. It was effective.
-Marauders of Gor, pg. 284

[05:22] Astorette Novi: there are quite a few poisons because you have for eample fobricain of geiron and sjel which have not ben mentioned

[05:23] Astorette Novi: However I would like to look at ways these were administered before I end

[05:24] Astorette Novi: Free Women are the biggest users of poison and in truth it is felt to be the weapon of women, since most are not trained in other ways to defend herself. A Free Woman may carry a poisoned knife or needle concealed in her clothes. She may also use poisoned pins to style her hair. Such weapons can also be concealed in a room or area known only to the woman

Fang Ring

The name comes from the fact that it is worn like a normal ring, but there is a place to press which causes a “fang” to raise up. The venom or poison is stored inside the ring, the fang is just like a snake’s fang, hollow and when it punctures the skin, the poison is delivered through it

Poison Girls
A person can be slain by the bite of a chemically prepared slave. It is also possible to breed a girl with poisonous saliva.

Poisoned Drinks

Poison, such as kanda or ost is added to a drink.

Poisoned TeethSuicide Pellets

Special pellets formulated to kill. They are taken when a person does not wish to give up information that may be tortured from him.

Water Sources

Poison may be added to a place’s water supply to spoil it and cause death and confusion.

[05:29] Astorette Novi: there are many more you just need to think it through these are just a few.

^{Mortuary of Landa (2011)}

^{Pilgrimage to Sardar, taken from he Ianda Times vol. 1, issue 33 (2012)}

The Sardar Pilgrimage as a Legal Measure of Punishment

Presentation at the En’Kara Fair [2026, edited] by Melampus (godhet), member of the white caste and Initiate of Isfahan

You are most welcome to my talk on “The Sardar Pilgrimage as a Legal Measure of Punishment.” My name is Melampus, and I have been an initiate at the Temple of Isfahan for three years, having previously studied with my revered teacher, Blessed One Tariq ibn Joshao, from the Oasis of Two Scimitars.

[15:02] Melampus (godhet): Today, here as we stand on this pilgrimage, before the majestic Sardar Mountains, I feel compelled to make a proposal. It is a proposal to include the pilgrimage to the Sardar Mountains as a means of punishment within the public legal system.

[15:03] Melampus (godhet): I am not only talking about pilgrimages as a punitive measure under the Initiate Law for religious offenses, but also about secular law, that is, about public law of cities as well as merchant law.

^{The gates of Sardar}

[15:04] Melampus (godhet): For wherever we read about the Initiate Law in the books, we see that it is closely intertwined with secular legal systems. This is particularly evident in the fact that Goreans must undertake this journey before their 25th birthday. The following quote refers to Ute from the leatherworkers’ caste of Teletus:

[15:04] Melampus (godhet): “Besides, she knew well that, some year, prior to her twenty-fifth year, such a journey must be undertaken by her. The Merchants of Teletus, controlling the city, would demand it of her, fearing the effects of the possible displeasure of the Priest-Kings on their trade. If she did not undertake the journey then, she would be simply, prior to her twenty-fifth birthday, removed from the domain of their authority, placed alone outside their jurisdiction, beyond the protection of their soldiers. Such an exile, commonly for a Gorean, is equivalent to enslavement or death. For a girl as beautiful as Ute it would doubtless have meant prompt reduction to shameful bondage, chains and the collar. …”
Captive of Gor, Book 7, page 234

[15:05] Melampus (godhet): Had Ute not undertaken the pilgrimage before her 25th birthday, she would be subject to secular law and would have to face consequences as described in this quote. This means that the secular authorities, if not ensuring the pilgrimage itself, would at least impose legal repercussions if the journey was not undertaken within the prescribed time limit.

[15:06] Melampus (godhet): It is a religious precept. But the reason a city administration enforces it lies in the fear that the city might lose the favor of the priest-kings if it disobeys. The city’s welfare—or, in religious terms, its salvation—is at stake. The priest-kings might turn against the city if religious precepts are not followed.

[15:06] Melampus (godhet): Why is that?

^{Initiate Kai (malakai.corvinus) inaugurated the temple of the White Caste in Cartassa (2022).}

[15:07] Melampus (godhet): The cities in the central region of the Gorean continent and the surrounding islands were famously created by John Norman based on the model of the polis in ancient Greece. It is therefore reasonable to assume that the religion of these cities, the belief in priest-kings, is also based on the religion of the Greek polis

[15:08] Melampus (godhet): And indeed, there are parallels that are already evident in the external circumstances. The priest-kings reside in a mountain range, the Sardar Mountains, and according to ancient Greek belief, the gods also dwell on a mountain massif, Mount Olympus, the highest mountain in Greece.

[15:08] Melampus (godhet): A central concept in ancient Greek religion is “hubris.” And that is what this is about: hubris. “Hubris” means arrogance and presumption. The reasons lie in overestimating oneself and in pride. Both are things that neither the gods of Greece nor the priest-kings can tolerate. Whoever overestimates himself and becomes arrogant lacks proper restraint; he owes both gods and priest-kings the respect they deserve. He becomes presumptuous and disregards the commands of the gods. And he ignores religious precepts.

[15:10] Melampus (godhet): If a community, a city, tolerates or even supports this, it is guilty of hubris. It will be punished by the gods just as arrogance itself is. The priest-kings withdraw their favor from the city, and the city becomes impoverished or desolate. The previously mentioned quote refers to the merchants who are explicitly concerned about trade in their city of Teletus.

[15:11] Melampus (godhet): But things could get even worse. If the inhabitants let their hubris go too far, they might face the destruction of their city by the blue flame. The consequences are devastating: A city that has lost the favor of the priest-kings is doomed.

[15:12] Melampus (godhet): The pilgrimage to the Sardar Mountains is therefore not only a supplication pilgrimage, in which offerings are made to the priest-kings on the platform by the palisades in exchange for a favor. Of course, this is also part of the pilgrimage to the Sardar Mountains.

[15:12] Melampus (godhet): An example of this is the Red Savage, which John Norman describes on that platform in Book 3, Priest Kings of Gor: The hunter gives the priest-kings a self-carved tabuk and in return wants the tabuk herds to not fail to appear that year.

^{Initiates of Herlit (2011)}

[15:13] Melampus (godhet): This is the principle of “Do ut des,” as the Romans say. I give you something so that you give me what I want. This principle can also include the idea of ​​restitution. The priest-kings are receiving back something that is rightfully theirs, but which I withheld from them through my hubris.

[15:14] Melampus (godhet): If I succumbed to hubris, I withheld something from the priest-kings. I thereby angered them. What could be more obvious to appease the priest-kings in their wrath than a pilgrimage to the Sardar Mountains? Here, too, the pilgrimage is, in a sense, a bargain with the priest-kings.

[15:15] Melampus (godhet): If the authorities enforce religious rites to ensure the prosperity of their city, then I believe it is reasonable to consider using religious precepts as a legal remedy beyond this. This could even include a sentence of pilgrimage, even for a criminal offense.

[15:16] Melampus (godhet): I would like to illustrate this with a case study that does not come from John Norman’s books, but from Earth:

[15:16] Melampus (godhet): In the city of Leuven in the Duchy of Brabant (present-day Belgium), in 1418, the citizen Janne Vliege int Sant stood before a jury. He was accused of acts of violence, mistreatment, and rape. The jury sentenced him to three pilgrimages to Cyprus, Santiago de Compostela, and Rocamadour, and precisely stipulated the itinerary for each.

[15:17] Melampus (godhet): Janne Vliege has to leave for Cyprus within three months. That means he has to travel from Leuven, a neighboring city of Brussels, to a Mediterranean port in order to sail from there to Cyprus.

[15:19] Melampus (godhet): Once he returns from Cyprus, he has to set off for Santiago de Compostela within six weeks. Santiago is located in the far northwest of Spain. Janne Vliege therefore has a long and arduous hike ahead of him, crossing the Pyrenees and the mountains of northern Spain.

^{An Initiate, Se’Kara Fair (2024)}

[15:20] Melampus (godhet): Once he returns from Santiago, he must set off for Rocamadour within another six weeks. Rocamadour lies precisely in the center of France. This means that on his pilgrimage to Santiago, he could have planned his route to pass by it. But no, the jury ordered him to return home first before embarking on his third pilgrimage.

[15:21] Melampus (godhet): Janne Vliege had to bring a certificate from each pilgrimage site, in which a priest confirmed to the lay judges that the convicted man had been there and had fulfilled the religious requirements with the necessary devotion. In his case, we don’t know if this happened, because the certificates can no longer be found in the archives.

[15:22] Melampus (godhet) ad Radegundam vertit: “Unum tale dictum adhuc, filia mea, et lingua originali initiatorum loqui pergam.”

[15:23] Melampus (godhet): But sentencing people to punitive pilgrimages was common practice. Thousands of such sentences have survived from the period between the 14th and 17th centuries, and occasionally even into the end of the 18th century. We find them primarily in the cities of the Netherlands, including present-day Belgium, and in southern France, where the Inquisition in Toulouse was also very active.

[15:24] Melampus (godhet): The criminal cases that resulted in sentences of punitive pilgrimages were diverse. They can be assigned to several categories.

[15:25] Melampus (godhet): Religious offenses: These include blasphemy and heresy.

[15:26] Melampus (godhet): Official misconduct: Corruption and misconduct by municipal and princely officials. But also insulting or using violence against officials, for example, slapping a magistrate.
And also official misconduct committed by both groups: perjury, forgery, violation of police regulations, filing false complaints.

[15:27] Melampus (godhet): Commercial offenses: Use of false measures and weights, violation of regulations governing trade and business activities

[15:27] Melampus (godhet): Sexual offenses: Rape, sodomy, laziness, adultery

[15:29] Melampus (godhet): Offenses against persons:
Breach of the peace, manslaughter, threats, provocations, assault, inflicting injuries, attacks on someone’s home, insult

[15:30] Melampus (godhet): Property crimes: Theft, robbery and poaching

^{A member of the White Caste, En’Kara Fair (2024)}

[15:32] Melampus (godhet): However diverse these offenses may be, in Dutch cities, the punishment in one-third of all documented cases across all categories was a pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela. This is a walk of approximately 5,000 kilometers: 2,500 kilometers there and 2,500 kilometers back. If a person committed multiple offenses, the lay judges often imposed several pilgrimages.

[15:33] Melampus (godhet): In serious cases, the pilgrimages had to be undertaken one after the other. Often, the lay judges were lenient, and the requirement to visit several places could be fulfilled with a single trip.

[15:33] Melampus (godhet): It is important to note that even in late medieval European criminal law, a distinction was made between manslaughter and murder. In cases of manslaughter, a punitive pilgrimage could be imposed, but not in cases of murder. Murder was considered too serious to warrant a pilgrimage.

[15:34] Melampus (godhet): Why were criminals sentenced to pilgrimages?

[15:34] Charlotte Windsor: So we, Goreans, vs. earthlings, are the blessed ones to only need to go to the Sardar for the piligrimage before we are twenty-five. Receiving pardon from such crimes, and appeasing the Priest Kings.

^{An initiate during a mysterious ritual (Herlit 2011)}

[15:35] Charlotte Windsor: So the city will be cleansed of his crimes?

[15:35] Charlotte Windsor: a sacrifice for the Priest Kings.

[15:36] Melampus (godhet): Yes, you afre right, Lady. Both is correct.

[15:36] Melampus (godhet): There are a whole host of reasons, ranging from legal history to psychology. I’d like to mention the four most important ones:

[15:37] Melampus (godhet): Religious reasons. A crime is not only an offense against fellow human beings and society, but also a sin against God. A pilgrimage can offer atonement for an offense committed against God and against the divinely ordained order.

[15:37] Melampus (godhet): Legal reasons: A pilgrimage was not something pleasant as we imagine it today. It was strenuous, arduous, and fraught with danger. Being sent on a pilgrimage was a real punishment. The more serious the offense, the farther away the pilgrimage site. For lesser offenses, pilgrimages to closer destinations could be ordered; from the Netherlands, for example, to Aachen, Cologne, or Trier. This was then a lesser punishment because it was less far, less strenuous, and less dangerous.

[15:38] Melampus (godhet): Social reasons: Let’s take the example of Janne Vliege from Leuven, who must have been a real scoundrel. He needed at least a year and a half for his three pilgrimages to Cyprus, Santiago de Compostela, and Rocamadour. That means he was gone for a year and a half. People had a year and a half of peace from him, perhaps even two years. And perhaps he never came back at all. The imposition of punitive pilgrimages thus had a social and hygienic significance.

[15:39] Melampus (godhet): Psychological reasons: People change when they travel. Travel always has a performative character. This is even more pronounced in pilgrimages than in secular travel, because the idea of ​​conversion and new beginnings plays an even greater role.

[15:40] Melampus (godhet): I once attempted a definition of pilgrimage: “Pilgrimage is a spiritually imbued and purposeful walking that prompts a rethinking of one’s own orientation and ultimately leads to personal change.”
[15:40] Melampus (godhet): Behind the pilgrimage lies the hope that the individual will be transformed, that they will become someone else. This is part of the very essence of a pilgrimage, regardless of the religion or destination. It may sound naive to hope, especially in the case of offenders and criminals, that this transformation will occur and last, but it is the very essence of it..

[15:41] Melampus (godhet): At least one positive effect occurs. The English scholar Thomas More once said: “There has never been a pilgrim who has returned home without having shed a prejudice and gained a new thought.”

^{In a secret place in the oasis of Klima gathered the leaders of the Southern Trade Alliance, the warriors of the desert and the leaders of the caravan. A man some already knew was proclaimed the new Salt Ubar. The initiate held a small ceremony and gave his blessing.}

[15:42] Melampus (godhet): And what does that have to do with Gor? Let me summarize:

[15:43] Melampus (godhet): The religious concepts behind a Catholic pilgrimage to the tomb of the Apostle James in Santiago de Compostela and to the Sardar Mountains, the seat of the priest-kings, could not be more different. In the first case, it is about reconciliation with God, for which the saint is invoked as an intercessor. In the case of the Sardar pilgrimage, it is about—in addition to a trade with the priest-kings—avoiding hubris through adherence to religious precepts

[15:44] Melampus (godhet): And yet: Penalty pilgrimages can be linked to the idea of ​​overcoming hubris in the pilgrimage to the Sardar Mountains, just as they can to the idea of ​​reconciliation in the Catholic pilgrimage. In both cases, it is about change, renewal, and conversion. And this is ultimately the goal that should be pursued when imposing penal pilgrimages.

[15:45] Melampus (godhet): I would therefore like to advocate that legal scholars consider this possibility in their jurisprudence. It is certainly more humane than impalement and offers more interesting possibilities for role-playing than other, conventional punishments.

[15:46] Melampus (godhet): We initiates can offer diverse assistance in such a role-playing scenario. The initiate in their hometown can issue a letter of authentication and bestow a blessing upon the pilgrim before their departure. Initiates in the towns along the way can welcome pilgrims, provide them with shelter and pastoral care. And the initiates at the pilgrimage site in the Sardar Mountains can receive the condemned, listen to their stories, and issue them a document certifying their arrival.

[15:48] Ferrace Memo: (=>en) The penal pilgrimage is a very good thing for purification. But how long does something like this last?

[15:51] Melampus (godhet): That’s a valid point, Lady. In modern times, starting in the 1980s, this practice was revived, for example by the youth organization OIKOTEN in Belgium. There, young offenders are sent on outings, but not alone; they are accompanied. I once encountered a group in real life. There was even a police officer with a weapon in his armpit holster.
[15:52] Hermes (prinzensaft): My worry: is there not the general status of pilgrims that might be of concern? For now I’d consider a pilgrim a pious person, but if this punishment becomes generalized, it will shed doubt on every pilgrim.

[15:55] Melampus (godhet): Well, Your Excellency Khan, everyone who goes on pilgrimage receives the status of a pilgrim. They temporarily belong to this class for the duration of their journey. In the past, there were rituals for this, such as the presentation of a pilgrim’s bag and staff by a priest, comparable to the insignia of a monk. Part of the concept of pilgrimage is also not to focus on the person and their past, but to accept them in their new status.

^{Serus, Initiate of Ianda (2017)}

[15:57] Melampus (godhet) nods to Amina: “Yes, that’s actually the concept. That pilgrimage leads to change. I see it more realistically and believe that often not much will change, but probably a little, and it’s an opportunity for new ideas and perspectives.”

[16:00] Melampus (godhet) shakes his head at Khan’s remark: “Well, that would no longer be a pilgrimage, but an exile, albeit only temporary. But it could also go to places other than the Sardar Mountains, such as to the martyrs of the Temple of Kassau.”

[16:01] Hermes (prinzensaft): So if I understand you correctly, the destinations would have to be sacred places of sorts? What would figure as such? Any temple in a city?

[16:02] Melampus (godhet) nods: “That could be added, although I believe the daily rhythm of setting off, traveling, and arriving is already a task in itself. I wouldn’t burden the pilgrimage with too much else.”

[16:02] Hermes (prinzensaft): Yes, lady, that pilgrimage also requires to pass a certain number of places. And not forcibly holy ones.

[16:03] ℜadegund (radegundis): This addition to the meaning of the pilgrimage is so significant that there is probably only one appropriate course of action. Someone must travel personally to the Priest-Kings, humbly present the proposal, and then wait for a reply… however many hundreds of orbits around the celestial fire that may take.

[16:03] Hermes (prinzensaft): The final destination might be the Sardar, but why not add other places, as was the case for that Dutch guy.

[16:04] Melampus (godhet): The Sardar Mountains are naturally the main pilgrimage, if only because of the proximity to the priest-kings, an experience that can only be had here.

[16:08] Melampus (godhet): Certainly, this too has a spiritual dimension: a pilgrimage from temple to temple. While we don’t have relic worship on Gor, all the temples are the homes of the priest-kings. However, for the concept of overcoming hubris, the journey to the Sardar Mountains remains the ultimate goal.

[16:11] Melampus (godhet) bows slightly: “You are very welcome. I am glad that you enjoyed the class.”

^{The mysterious Sardar mountains and something eery…}

Meeting of those of the Red Caste of Gor

Presentation at the En’Kara Fair [2026, edited] by Augustus Bade

[12:57] Augustus Bade shouts: “Tal and welcome everyone! I am Augustus Bade, Commander of the warriors of Turmus, prior to that Commander of the City of Brundisium, prior to that, Commander in the City of Besni, and it is my great honor indeed to lead this meeting of those of the Red Castes of Gor. I hope when this meeting is over you have found me worthy. What an excellent turn-out for us here, what a great En’Kara Fair!”

[12:58] Augustus Bade: “Now, we have all been to Warrior Meetings in our Home Stones, they are PRIVATE affairs, not for the eyes of others, with words not meant for the ears of slaves, and sometimes not even shared with women of our own caste. But this is the Fair, and as other castes are doing, this is a chance to share a small glimpse of us to those not of our caste, a chance to recruit perhaps, and to help others understand us a bit more as they listen. With due high respect to other castes, we are the foundation that civilization depends on. Without us, there is chaos. Before there can be law, before governing, before prosperity, before there can be a safe village or city, there first must be steel and the honor of those who wield it.”

[12:59] Augustus Bade shouts: “So, since there are the ears of others listening, we will not speak directly of our Codes and Aphorisms here. We all know them, we all live them, we all aspire to follow them fully. We will however, speak of Home Stones, and of course, as is the custom that began many generations past, he who speaks of a Home Stone should stand.”

[13:01] Augustus Bade shouts: “Before we proceed, all of us here owe a shout-out to the warrior Godric, who created and maintains the ZCS meter, assisted by Captain Ezio. They test and certify all weapons for ZCS, to assure fairness and consistency for all of us. Also a shout-out to Lady Vivienne, of Turmus, who is the creator of the Blackrose Tournament Board that so many of us use and that serves us so well. She also makes clothing and other items for warriors, to help those of the Red Caste well-equipped and with style. And our thanks to all here whose work unseen makes a difference for all of us”

^{Warriors of Landa, posing [2012]}

[13:04] ᴇᴢɪᴏ ᴀᴇᴛɪᴠs sᴍɪʟᴏᴅᴏɴ (ezio.sabretooth) shouts: ((Also ᴅᴀɴɪᴇʟ ꜱ. ᴠᴏɴ ꜱᴛʀᴀᴜꜱꜱ (dry.dust) is the ZCS meter creator))

[13:04] Augustus Bade shouts: “Now as I said, this is a different meeting than a usual Warrior meeting, we will not speak words unworthy to hear by those of other castes and those who be slave. Any questions before we begin?

[13:06] Augustus Bade: “Now the purpose of this meeting is not to make decisions on that are binding throughout the lands, the leaders of each city have that privilege as to customs and protocols they follow, The purpose here is to share opinions, ideas, criticisms, and agreement among ourselves, so that our Gorean warrior community might have more efficiency, clarity and consistency, and more recruitment moving forward in what for some cities, are challenging times.”

[13:07] Augustus Bade: “The first subject we will talk about is the occasionally raising issue of when a warrior who had pledged an oath to a Home Stone, encounters circumstances that lead him to change to a different city and join the caste there.”

[13:08] Augustus Bade: “What of a warrior’s old oath? Should he be required to immediately make a new one? It used to be that cities lasted for generations; a warrior might pledge once in his life. But now cities and villages rise, they fall, sometimes a warrior finds his skills no longer needed, and yet a warrior must have purpose, that is the point of being one, so he must seek it elsewhere. How do we best transition from a former Home Stone to new one? Now, while you ponder a moment, MY belief is that because the state of cities now, a man should find a way to be released from his old oath if possible, and then encouraged to swear to his new Home Stone, but not be required to. Of course, if their former city has gone to dust, it is a simpler matter, but what if that city rises again? Now, if any of you have a opinion, share it, disagree with me as you wish. We have other issues to discuss after this, so let’s all try to each speak only one time on each issue. I have said my piece, who wishes to go next?”

[13:13] Rolf (everbardin): (( I think this can only be answered OOC because most of the reasons for sims rising/falling is OOC, and so there’s no real pure RP solution for this sort of thing. It’s just a reality of SL Gor and the reasons for sims closing runs the full spectrum from financial reasons to health reasons to interpersonal drama to whatever, doesn’t matter, so if you intend to continue the same character, you’re going to have to find some kind of RP reason out of an oath. Whether it’s a hand wave, of your old Home Stone being destroyed, or an even older Home Stone returning — it’s one of those SL inconsistencies that we just all have to accept.

The only other option is to reroll to a new character every time a sim opens and closes. I reroll quite often, more than most people I think because I enjoy the challenge of writing a new character, but even I don’t reroll that much and it’s an unrealistic expectation. So, you just sort of do the best you can and fudge it. It’s why I try not to call people out IC on previous

^{Kasra Sword Tournament [2019]}

[13:15] Harry Horchester: / Since we seem to be mixing IC and OOC anyway, I will say that with SL and sims being what they are, we should perhaps transition to an imagined state where a city exists, even if it falls in SL. Once can always say there of a a certain land, if they lived there or took an oath to it. For example, you will often see, those of Treve always say they are Trevan, whether or not a sim exists in SL or not. Likewise, where a sim exists or not, those that pledge to the might and great, the land of democracy and the bane of Ubarates in Gor, Port Kar, they will always be Of Port Kar. Perhaps other disagree, but if we are trying to be BTB, then the BTB way is to stay loyal to your city, no matter what and once sworn, you were in it till death pretty much. I understand we need to accommodate for SL, but those of my views.

[13:17] MadShepard Fyrewik: whenever possible, even under bad blood circumstances once a warrior swears to a stone his loyalty should be to that stone, unless he is formerly released from his oath, or requests to be released and granted…in the event of a defuncted dusted city then his oath has ended and he should carry the shame of that defeat. but…if the leader of the city receiving them is aware of these conditions and is willing to overlook them and accept him or actively recruit him then so be it. no harm no fowl really. but the attempt should always be made.

[13:18] Vulcan Arian (lordmarshall) nods ” remember how I swore? its an easy way to continue the rp, without rerolling, and gives people a fair opportunity to keep rp flowing.” he nods at Augustus.” that way we stay true to our selfs.” ( onlineism is a fact we can not change, truthfully, if this be real , no one would just tp places, we must accept that flaw and find a way around it. we all know , if ooc hits, and people move, even the ceremony I did could be used to revoke the other ones held))

[13:20] Alexposition: we can also hold on to our character, our BG and not want to “disappear” because of drama or RP inconsistency, often a BG is built over several years, relationships, friendships, in BTB it’s a subject that makes sense, in Ge we don’t even ask the questions

[13:21] ʜᴏʟʏ ғᴀᴛʜᴇʀ Ϯ ᴅɪ ʙᴏʀɢɪᴀ (logandior) gives a curt nod “I believe to be repeating a couple worlds nevertheless.. the world is not as it once was. Cities fall, banners fade, and men are left without a stone to stand upon. In such cases, release should be sought formally, and with respect. If it cannot be granted, then the burden remains with the warrior to carry that past with him, even as he moves forward. To swear anew should never be taken lightly, nor made optional as if it were convenience. A man without oath is merely armed… not bound. And an unbound blade serves no one for long.”
[13:22] Rilan and Rilyn (almost.zen) stomps his feet in agreement.

[13:27] Nephtides na Neidos (nephtides): *nods* I would like to second two things which were said; For one, the fall of a city on SL Gor doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist “gorographically” anyomre.. a fact the sim closing admins might simply honmour by pointing it out when they close, and by not doing it in irreversible ways (volcano etc). The second thing is: Yes, we live witrh a compromise, depicting a complex world no simualtion can illustrate completely.. so consistency must come from Us. My home stone is at the Oasis of Lame Kaiila, but if soimeone would insult one of my former home stones, I would retort ;)

[13:28] Augustus Bade: “Now as I said at the start of this, nothing binding to any city will be our outcome, that is up to those that run their castes and cities to decide. But we have heard various views, and I for one find it useful to know what most of you think. While the Codes give us guidance for most everything else, they don’t quite cover this.. Koded, let’s have be the last one,” so we can move onto the next thing to discuss.”
[13:28] ᴋᴏᴅᴇᴅ ʀʏᴜ (koded.faith): 80% of the warriors dont know how to fight, dont know the codes and duties , just play warrior because its “easy” and every city needs them , so in short, everyone will do what they want to, and the caste will continue being more weak and weak until dies like all other castes, because nowdays, everyone plays on atls, rules and consequences dont matter , in short, gor sucks, we as a community killed it, so all these discussions are a waste of time, and i congratulate the few of you thats trying to save it.

[13:30] Harry Horchester: Perhaps we can adopt some sort of standard, if others agree, which is in itself an almost impossible task, but here is a proposal. Perhaps we don’t even need this and are over-thinking this, but I will throw this other there –> . A man of the Caste of Warriors is expected to remain loyal to his Home Stone till ……… 1. the Home Stone ceases to exist in SL 2. the warrior is killed, thus releasing him fro his oath 3. can choose to remain loyal and bound to his Home Stone, even if no sim exists in SL 4. at the choosing of the roleplayer, they may create an story that justifies their departure and breaking of the oath from said Home Stone, but it should be an extraordinary event, not something you do over and over. A warrior is supposed to be loyal and responsible, and above all, honorable in his regard for his beloved Home Stone that he is willing to forsake his life to defend.

[13:32] Harry Horchester: In response to Koded, there used to be a formal process about becoming a warrior in the old days and it would be nice to do that instead of taking the easy route. I remember when you had to know the codes and were tested in them. As for fighting, its not easy for every, so I will abstain from commenting on that

[13:36] Augustus Bade: “Next, a subject suggested by MadShepard….The warrior’s role in daily society beyond his fighting and protecting, where do we need more of a relevant role? Where should there be less of a role?”

[13:36] Augustus Bade: “Now while you think on that, I will go first: I see us as much more than protectors, we are examples to others of what true men should be. When a warrior steps into a room, people should feel he is more than a soldier or guard, a man not only a master of steel and with honor second to none; he is what a young boy should look at with awe and want to be, and who a young girl hopes to someday be worthy to companion. The world needs us to show them The Way….honor, courage, wisdom, dedication. If not us, then who *else* is better suited for setting an example? True, we do tourneys to show our skills, we war with other cities to bring our own city fame and respect, but let’s find more ways to be examples to others. Now, where I think we should do LESS, is getting involved in dealing with minor crimes and disturbances that are not any threat to the safety or prosperity of our city. Too often we are summoned because a woman may be showing too much skin, or some High Caste woman doesn’t like the way a
[13:36] Augustus Bade: merchant or slave has talked to her, or so on. As clearly described in the scrolls of Tarl Cabot, roving, armed magistrates should handle those sorts of things, leaving us to concentrate on our training and dealing with matters that are actually a threat. If a magistrate needs our help to make of an arrest, we will help of course, but we are misused at times, and that needs to happen less.”

[13:40] Alexposition: a warrior is a complex man like all men, it is reductive to only stick to the role of a warrior, he can be a father, a builder, often with a heavy past, he can be asked to be the “police” or protect the weakest, his family and to be there for the community as a man

[13:41] MadShepard Fyrewik: we are not police, it’s not our job to go sus out every grievance, we are the defense system that allows a city to maintain it’s borders. but so often we are treated like the “he hurt my feelings” brigade. I have taught classes on this topic but I would much rather listen to how this plays out from other places as my home stone hasn’t needed defending in ages

[13:42] Jarek SpiritWeaver: Cities and villages had those who were of the caste of ‘civil servants’ that acted much like the police/constables. They handled the local law enforcement, guarding and such. Warriors could be hired as protectors by private individuals. Not mercenaries. We see this in the books when a woman who was being escorted insulted and berated Tarl, then tried to command her escort to attack him. They knew better in keeping with the Codes, his beef was with HER, not them. It was beneath them to fight due to her stupidity.

^{Warriors of Torvaldsland attacking Olni in Saleria!}

[13:42] Jarek SpiritWeaver: Even most of the gates were ‘guarded’ by guardsman of a city, checking identification and papers
[13:42] Jarek SpiritWeaver: Warriors were the army
[13:43] Jarek SpiritWeaver: they were the professionals, their profession was training and steel. Not petty stuff
[13:43] Jarek SpiritWeaver: Here in SL we kind of compromise/morph some of it. Our new ‘warriors’ are not called warriors but “Guardsman”

[13:47] Rolf (everbardin): I’m not really sure what the question is. First, I’d ask: what kind of warrior are we talking here? Everyone has different duties — caste duties, duties to the Home Stone, duties associated with a fee if you’re a mercenary. If you’ve been hired as a guard to accompany a slaver to the Northern Forest and assist in the capture of panthers, or outlaws, then your duty there is pretty clear.

If you’re a city warrior, your duties are more routine and repetitive. You police the city of martial threats, you train for war, you perform duties for your caste as that is the best way that you can serve your Home Stone.

I disagree with Jarek — there are warriors who act as guardsmen in the books often, both in the mercenary capacity and in the city capacity. And the incident you’re referring to is from Beasts of Gor and only happens after one of the warriors fights Tarl and sees he is completely outmatched, respects him as a man of the Warriors, and decides to abandon the insulting free woman to Tarl’s

[13:47] Rolf (everbardin): reprisals rather than waste the lives of the men under his command. It’s also not clear if these are mercenaries or if they’re part of the woman’s city warrior caste (she’s from Kassau I believe, traveling to Lydius).

But anyway, my point is that there are all sorts of duties for all sorts of warriors. Also, we should keep in mind that this is RP and that not every one of us needs to play a perfect warrior who keeps the codes — there are bad men in the books, villains who betray caste and codes, who twist honor to serve their purpose, and those men might be defined by entirely different things than a warrior from Ar.
[13:48] Rolf (everbardin): And also, we should keep in mind cultural differences even with city warriors. A warrior from Ko-ro-ba will have a slightly different interpretation of honor than a city from an island Ubarate like Cos, for example, and definitely a warrior of Treve.

[13:49] Rolf (everbardin): And that means their duties, their day to day, what defines them will also be different. The role is not meant to be played as if men are stamped out from a mold with machine precision and similitude.

[13:49] Augustus Bade: “Thank you, Rolf, the to restate the issue, it was about roles that the warriors should see to beyond their fighting and protecting. I mentioned being an example to others of what a Man should be in all he says and does. Next to speak is Priest, go ahead please”

[13:50] ʜᴏʟʏ ғᴀᴛʜᴇʀ Ϯ ᴅɪ ʙᴏʀɢɪᴀ (logandior) “The role of the Warrior does not end at the edge of a blade, a warrior is not merely called upon in moments of conflict, but a constant presence that ensures order does not fracture in its absence. We are needed where discipline fails. In the streets, where law must be seen to exist not only enforced when broken. At the gates, where vigilance must never dull. Within the walls, where slaves, merchants, and even Free must be reminded quietly or otherwise that structure is maintained by strength.Too often, warriors withdraw into hibernation when no war calls them. That is where we fail. We should be more present in the daily rhythm of the city overseeing, correcting, reinforcing standards. Not as tyrants… but as the visible spine of the Home Stone. Where should there be less of us? In matters that do not require steel. Governance, trade, and craft belong to those castes who hold that knowledge. A warrior who overreaches into such domains risks becoming inefficient or worse, a blunt instrument where
[13:50] ʜᴏʟʏ ғᴀᴛʜᴇʀ Ϯ ᴅɪ ʙᴏʀɢɪᴀ (logandior): precision and finesse is required.” He let the words settle before concluding. “A Red Caste warrior must remain ever relevant not by seeking conflict, but by ensuring it is seldom needed. Presence, discipline, and readiness… that is where we must stand.”

[13:52] Traveler (nolan.riederer): “Rolf hits the nail on the head with cultural differences from city to city. Each city is governed in a way that works for its people and its beliefs on what is right. To expand on words from Logan, In our city, a basic rule of thumb is if its not a crime harming another then its a matter for the magistrates or praetors of our caste. A woman is indecent? She can be summoned by the magistrate. Perhaps put her in holding if its extreme and no magistrates can be found at that moment, but this rarely happens. Our recruits, also focused on guardsman duties help with this as well in their patrols. The only exceptions end up being when we sometimes simply need to cover for those not around. We can’t be awake all day, every day. We are trained to do more than use the sword.”
[13:52] Harry Horchester: He’s a Initiate wanting to be a Warrior or a Warrior wanting to be an Initiate

[13:58] Augustus Bade: “Now, to be courteous to other events, I should mention that the tarn races are starting soon, at the arena at the Southeast sim. Anyone interested should head there, for the rest who wish to stay and speak more, we will keep on going. To those that may leave, thank you for attending!”

[13:59] Traveler (nolan.riederer): im going to this OOC.: There is a population issue over all. I think egos need to be pushed aside and we all need to gather and spar, learn to join forces if you have a lesser city and be creative on why ICly. There’s long histories with many people and we just need to let things go because newer faces have provided feedback that all the ego/ooc reasons to not fight is a huge turn off. Last year we said we would go sim to sim and have meetings and train and elevate the caste. so lets just actually do this.

How do you get more warriors?

You make more wars. The sad truth is that playing a city warrior gets extremely boring when there’s nothing going beyond your day-to-day life. You can get a lot of action in policing your city if your sim is high traffic and has a lot of randoms showing up but eventually, that dries up, and every sim enters a stage where it becomes the same names, largely doing the same sort of RP.

Every sim that’s existed for more than 6 months has dealt with this sort of thing. It’s just a natural part of a sim’s life span. This, in my experience, is when you start losing caste members typically and there’s very little you can do to combat it, if you have guys who want fights, other than to give them fights. There aren’t enough mock raids in the world to keep people interested — they need conflict RP with IC consequences.

So, it’s on us as a community to actually get that going more. If we don’t, the caste will continue to wither
[14:02] Rolf (everbardin): and die. The reason Warriors used to be the most active role in BTB is because they had a lot of stuff to do and without wars, there just isn’t enough meat on the bone RP wise to keep people interested.

[14:04] Pᴀᴅʀᴇ Pᴀᴄᴏ (brutus.blackwood): There’s a lot of points to make here, and I’m sure others will articulate them poignantly like Rolf just did, but I wanna comment on this issue in particular because I’ve had friends be disheartened from joining as a direct result of it — gatekeeping women typists. As you all know, SL in general has a man famine. There is probably 1 man for every 50 women, and its probably worse in Gor. Pad your flanks with capable roleplayers and fighters regardless of whatever is behind the screen. The pool of warriors gets more shallow by the day so we gotta adjust to the change. That’s all I wanted to say.

[14:05] Nephtides na Neidos (nephtides): I think there are three things we could do. 1: Make warriors respect warriors, and make the population respect warriots. Which both do not do sufficiently to depict what a warrior can be on Gor. Those low caste folks talking you bad in the middle of the street destroy immersion.. so, be at your best and change that. 2. Being good at meter fighting doesn’t mean you are fit to lead a caste, and meter fighting does zero for the ambience of warriordom. We should grow in nonmetered fighting. 3. Get more interesting. In a world with Tarnriders, Tharlarion cavalry, kaiila cavalry and naval warfare, stop all being infantry grunts The fantasy often is undersized, and we tend to make warriors pure order-obeying rakes in a mechanism instead of the headstrong frontmen they are in the books.

[14:11] Rolf (everbardin): Well, I just wanted to say to Neph first — if you want other caste players to respect warriors more, you gotta give ’em more wars. Do you know when other players appreciated warriors? When any chumps could land on their docks and run inside, raiding NOT on a schedule but just whenever they showed up — when there was a threat of them being carried off constantly, your city’s free women tend to really appreciate the presence of its warriors a bit more. So again, that goes back to opening up the rules a bit, trying to encourage combat more.

And to Koded — you’re the only one who has been trolling here so far, at least a little bit. But one way to fix an imbalance in combat in BTB — if one group is really strong — is to form alliances. This used to be a huge thing. When I was Ubar of Kassau in 2010, we fought a massive alliance and you could still call in allies in the middle of the raid.

Ezio will tell you, one raid in Thentis, they sent a slave runner around to various sims and we had warriors: from Forest Port, from Turia, from Midgard, from all of these sims show up and the raid suddenly involved like 50+ people.

If there is one really strong group in terms of combat proficiency, make yourself a big alliance and I guarantee you the people in that strong group will be willing to work with you, to try and make it a fun fight for the community.

[14:13] Traveler (nolan.riederer): John Ocrest – Not really, sadly. I think thats part of the issue. we need to actually agree on what the outcomes are, which we have done recently and it has made the wars more meaningful for our sim

[14:13] MadShepard Fyrewik: The idea that came to mind for Koded’s question would be to take that serious group, and split them up…seperate them travel your seperate ways to teach and lead others to do things your way, learn to fight like you do and so on, then the amount of skill rises according to efforts, and when ready…we wage war on each other for “training purposes”

[14:15] Rolf (everbardin): And yeah, also just your basic RP consequences — as far as either sim wants to let it go really, John. If the people who owned both sims were willing, you could take it anywhere — you could let your city get conquered. But that requires more cooperation between sims which is just what we need in general. The limit as far as what you can win/lose in a war is only limited by the imaginations of the RPers involved.

[14:15] Ϯ Pʀɪᴇѕt Kobaιeɪnen Ϯ (what.lastchance): I will say one thing, as Rolf, just a comment. There was always a good environment when people land at the docks, announced. Women being hidden, people running, and the possibility of people being captured. Also, someone should just remove whoever is on this meeting, and clearly do not care to be here. We are here for solutions and help each other, not to keep criticizing.
[14:15] Rolf (everbardin): just to quickly answer him

[14:15] Arcadius of Turmus (blackbeardthepirate): 1. What mechanisms are in place to catch cheaters or are any sims doing anything to combat cheating on sims in terms of meter combat and the like? I have come a cross a few true Rarri who have left Gor due to the cheaters unfortunately. Great RPers and fighters who can’t adjust to a cheating style of fighting that has been adapted to. 2. Honor goes a long way brothers thus if we stick to the codes and honor we exemplify our caste. It’s perceived though that many are not truly Rarius but of another caste at times as well. Many represent the colors though their RP seems anything but that.

[14:18] Rolf (everbardin): I don’t know if you guys know but SL is rolling out a new scripting language soon, Lua, and Daniel, the ZCS guy, has already pretty much completely rescripted the meter for it. Once this rolls out and the meter updates to Lua, even if there are cheating tools out there which function currently for ZCS (though I am not aware of any), they would probably just stop working entirely with the scripting language update. As far what you can do now to catch cheaters, I’d just say rely on the expertise of people who are really good with the meter and know a lot about it, people like Ezio — most experienced fighters will be able tell you if there’s something wrong instantly.

[14:19] Rolf (everbardin): But largely, the problem of cheating is greatly exaggerated and exists more in people’s minds than it does in reality. That’s been my own personal experience. A lot of the time when someone calls cheating, it’s someone who doesn’t know the meter well who doesn’t exactly know how to explain what just happened to them.

^{Tahari warriors and allies prepare for battle (near Oasis of Klima)}

[14:21] Rolf (everbardin): You can usually walk somebody through and if they’re willing to listen, they’ll get it. Damage logs help a lot.

[14:21] ʜᴏʟʏ ғᴀᴛʜᴇʀ Ϯ ᴅɪ ʙᴏʀɢɪᴀ (logandior): Sorry, I’m adding to Rolf there is quite a few of us experienced in combat who easily see who is cheating or not, it is very obvious and like it was said there are already a few fail safes on the current version of the meter and more to come.

[14:22] Traveler (nolan.riederer): I will just put this out here because i agree with pretty much everything said. There are a lot of solutions and it likely takes all of them to get things going. But we need action. Yes we need to fight more but that means we need to lose more and not be upset about that. Kraven and Harry had some creative ideas in the past and Selnar has been eager to implement them. Progressive wars that are fought in territories vs cities to reflect armies coming ‘closer’. Battles in the skyboxes or ’empty’ sims to help with lag and also to agree on battles that aren’t dragged down by a million rules. A fun siege weekend with weapons and toys no longer used much. Like why do we really care about ladders? Changing things up goes a long way. Selnar is prepared to try this out with any city or group that is willing. We will allow random raiders as long as we can randomly return the favor. IC we are pompous dicks, but OOC we just want to have fun and are willing to do things differently to achieve that.

[14:23] MadShepard Fyrewik: i was going to just say when i was running tournaments, the key is speed, and we had scripted invisipris to check for a nuber of things and …i found we had a great group of guys Khronos, ezio, koded and a few others that would police the other fighters really well on their own. and while nothing is full proof, it was difficult at least to cheat during one of my tournaments

[14:24] Vivienne Daguerre: Viv stood to show respect. Thank you all. I was a raid moderator in the heyday of Sais when raids were frequent and fun. Many have tried to bring back raids and combat to BTB Gor. I think part of the problem is that in some cases, the best fighters are together on one sim, and the other cities cannot hope to win against them. They do not raid if they have no hope of winning. Their citizens do not go to those sims to drum up some fun trouble, because if captured, they know that they could not successfully rescue their people. And if they try, they get ridiculed and put down by big egos. When making your rules, keep in mind that everyone needs a fair chance to win. Do you make your defenses impossible to beat.
When you lose, don’t whine and complain and rage, insisting that others cheated. When you win, do not gloat and put others down. Win well and give good rp to your captives.

[14:28] Nephtides na Neidos (nephtides): Warriors are not soldiers in the modern sense, Sasha. And war crimes are a common staple in warfare, not an exception. Wars on Gor are quantitywise infantry heavy as all wars are, but we CAN focus on more interesting things too without unmaking that. The pew pew orgies don’t give Us ANY depth of warfare, no strategic level, and no cunning. No depiction of supply situations etc. I am only speaking for myself, but by now, I find meter fighting just terribly boring (and while I suck on it on my village connection and overaged computer, I wasn’t always shit, and it was just as boring back then :) ). The lag makes the entire movement ridiculous, the ways to fight are shaped by the meter mechanics which are not paying any respect to how fighting works, et

[14:32] Relius Himura (talldarkan.mysterious): Not necessarily a question but as an old far of Gor, I use to be very good at combat, starting out in GM then adapting to zCS, however, I took a break from scripted combat to focus on other things as a warrior and have fallen out of touch with the new ‘rules and recipes’ for how to optimize combat for myself, tips and tricks for the meter, the weapons, just in general. I’m certain there are still things which apply, and other things that don’t. Throw in fourteen years of aging fingers and arthritis, I just can not really compete in the meter combat realm like I want to and even if I want to, the lack of willing teachers is pretty astounding. I’m not talking ‘sparring partners’, but people who are willing to teach which was always my big thing in my glory days, spreading knowledge and helping people reach their potential, even if it meant becoming better than you. But something else to focus on is, as someone said here, being a good warrior isn’t about the meter combat aspect and I know that will be argued.
[14:32] Relius Himura (talldarkan.mysterious): The biggest issue I see with most modern day warriors is that they are, in their roleplay, less like warriors and men of honor and more like tyrants, rude, dishonorable, arrogant, snide, etc, and that really, really makes it deterring for an old soul to get involved in any city because it DOES mean something to us, the standard of behavior and roleplay which is becoming of a warrior which I think everyone should revisit, look at, really dive into, and then, when that is explored and taken into consideration, it would be nice for people who are not tied to cities, whose former friend base has thinned out due to old age and death, to find mentors willing to show them the new era of meter combat.

[14:36] Pᴀᴅʀᴇ Pᴀᴄᴏ (brutus.blackwood): Briefly, I just wanted to respond to Lady Vivienne’s observation. Rolf talked about one of the solutions to this earlier that I wanted to reiterate in case it was missed, but if there’s a stacked group of good fighters in one sim – form a big alliance with other cities/groups. Odds are, that strong group is willing to work with you to make it fun for everyone and not just a mass slaughterfest. I feel like its important to bring this up again and keep in mind the next time you’re plotting out a war or fight against a more powerful foe. That was it from me.

[14:39] Rolf (everbardin): To Neph: If you want raids/wars to be more than ‘mindless pew pew orgies’ or whatever you said, be the change you want to see, man. That’s all I can say to you there.

Lead a red caste, start a war, and figure out some sort of system OOC that has mechanics to account for the kinds of strategies and logistical realities that you’d like to see. I’ve seen this happen several times over the years where people have made wars more than simply raiding each other’s cities. In Selnar just last year, we fought Kar in a couple of naval battles to mix things up, and I’ve been involved in wars where battlefield skyboxes are built to represent neutral sites.

You could easily come up with some sort of rules for territorial/resource gains and losses. So, be the change you wanna see, man. Write that system up, just use the meter for the battles.

But I will say that as an aside, a small raid to steal free-women from another city is also a very BTB thing for a group of warriors to do in Gor and that’s removing the

[14:39] Rolf (everbardin): war element entirely. It’s more like sport and it should happen more often. There /should/ be more skirmishes, not just wars.

And to Relius: I think this is just kind of a consequence of modern Gor. People play the exception more than the rule these days. There should be bad men, villains, who subvert the codes and make honor into what they want it to be. There should be tyrants. But I do agree that lately the bad guy room has been a little crowded. (…)

Trading with Panthers

Presentation at the En’Kara Fair [2026, edited] by Aηɢeʟ Kereꜱ Blades (angelkeres.nightwish)

[10:09] Aηɢeʟ Kereꜱ Blades (angelkeres.nightwish) shouts: Welcome to Trading with Panthers, this is a guide for those living behind city walls to branch out trade, to the forests. I am ‘Angel’ Keres Blades of Port Shdows, located on the coast of the Northern Forest where we see panthers on a daily basis.

This discussion is a blend of one Free Woman’s experience, living and operating as a trader in the Northern Forests with knowledge a long time, experienced Panther. En of the Shiva Sa’ng Fori, Alena Ramona is here to nudge me when I make a mistake and help answer questions.

I operate in both BTB and GE worlds, finding that lately, most panthers exist in GE. I hope to dispel some myths and stereotypes, and give you a clear picture of what it takes for a successful trade with a panther band. Every trade with every band will be different. Your experiences will vary.

[10:11] Aηɢeʟ Kereꜱ Blades (angelkeres.nightwish) shouts: Trading with Panthers, I’ve found to be a mostly untapped market. As most expect, there is a level of danger, and a lot of unknowns when dealing with panthers. These factors grow more dangerous with rumor and gossip. Having the facts about traveling and interacting with the women of the forest will make it less daunting.
[10:12] Aηɢeʟ Kereꜱ Blades (angelkeres.nightwish) shouts: Today’s talk is split into sections discussing what panthers are like, what the trade process looks like, and what opportunities there are for trade.

A demonstration of the trade ‘ritual’ will be given after any questions are answered, followed by an opportunity for all to meet and practice a trade with a real, live panther if they wish. This is also an opportunity to make connections for trade after En’Kara.

[10:14] Morrigancalhoun Resident: (=>en) panther’s / taluna’s are not dangerous it is the man who hunts us that makes us dangerous even though we don’t want to

[10:14] Aηɢeʟ Kereꜱ Blades (angelkeres.nightwish) shouts: By definition, a panther is a female outlaw living in the forests in the north of Gor. They are typically escaped slaves or free women wanting to reject their prior life, but many are born in the forests, and have never seen the inside of city walls..

By reputation, a panther is fiercely independent, proud, and territorial. You will also find them to have tight sense of family with their bandmates, and a strong sense of loyalty and respect for leadership. This is not always true, using the Sa Ki Fori as an example. They sold a few of their own into slavery. Backstabbing weaker bandmates is not uncommon in SL Gor.

[10:16] Aηɢeʟ Kereꜱ Blades (angelkeres.nightwish) shouts: If you have heard stories of run-ins with panthers, they may have included taunting and mocking men, or even capturing them. The panthers of the forest are not only interested in kidnapping a man for ransom and sport. It is very common for attractive free women and slaves to be taken as well with the goal of indoctrination into the camp. Panthers are known for raiding other camps and caravans. Opposing bands are not normally friendly but they will join together in a common goal such as removing an individual from their forest.

[10:18] Aηɢeʟ Kereꜱ Blades (angelkeres.nightwish) shouts: The trade docks of a panther camp is sacred, one of the few ways to acquire the items critical to their survival. Merchant Law governs every panther trade dock, and they are familiar with the rules and ritual performed each time. There is a dance of positioning with certain steps and words to help develop the scene for successful, efficient, and safe trade with anyone.

[10:20] Alena Ramona: It also should be noted that panthers, in general, growing up in the forest is a bit of an SLism. A pregnant panther is usually seen as a liability from a btb point of view. However, it is also conceivable that it would happen somewhere, and that some might be more tolerant than others. This is a “Know your audience” situation. However, even if he did speak out of turn…Starr is pretty correct as Angel just demonstrated. All panthers generally see exchange point sanctuary traditions as immutable. I have seen far too many attacks at trade posts for the purpose of RP. If you care about authenticity, maybe reduce those a bit. Most are setting it up anyway and just having fun after all.

^{Gorean Panther girls in their natural habit.}

[10:22] Albrecht Hesius (6668941holy): i trade with panther for pelts or to add rp .the dockes in most are safe zones .but if you go there start calling them girl that dont go well .and most try to rp in a manner not to up set any .tho at times panther have that one who will call the man boy and other words .but over all i had good rp with panthers over the years

[10:24] Alena Ramona: Yes, so, to answer that by request…. That is mostly correct. If you go to the exchange point with the intent to just “Talk” or to start insulting the panthers present…expect to be attacked later on. If there is a travel distance from the exchange point you’re using to an exit point…don’t be surprised if they slap you down for it. Same goes for panthers trading with men…don’t stand there and jeer them and call them boy and all that. If you’re going to do that, trade at a non sanctioned point. This goes back to “setting up realistic RP”. If you’re doing that RP, you’re trying to start a story, which is understandable. We can do better than that, and make a more realistic scenario. Don’t ruin it for everyone! The more of us ruin exchange points the more the tradition changes to a weird SLism.

[10:25] Aηɢeʟ Kereꜱ Blades (angelkeres.nightwish) shouts: Meeting a panther on the Trade Dock, one would expect them eager to trade, but they do not operate as formal Gorean merchants. Trade happens when the need and opportunity coincide to benefit the survival of the band. The tone at the trade can be unpredictable, dangerous, and laced with threats or seduction all while staying on their terms. If the huntress making the trade becomes annoyed or angry, walking away from the trade completely is a valid and common consequence.

[10:26] Khi (tamaraward): Thank you. As you just said, trade at exchange points *should* be intense and dangerous and exciting. That said, the sanctity of them should never be broken by either side. It is a matter of honor. Honor that is the sinew that binds all of us together in the way of all interactions from all castes and cultures whether personal or community-wide.

[10:27] Alena Ramona: That is true Khi, but I like to stay away from words like “never” because there’s an exception to everything in life. As a general rule…never is probably near appropriate, but there always has to be room for interesting story as well. Regina is correct as well; that was a big problem, but we should focus on the positives rather than the actions of problem players.

[10:27] Alena Ramona: That is what I boil that down to….problem players are simply problem players and generally don’t care anyway so…the only thing to do is discipline them.

[10:29] Jonas Daviau: I use to trade .. I am still safe .. There is a difference nonetheless when dealing with panthers or taluna. Ritual is more sacred for the taluna, and one must be very careful—offer, and do not ask.

[10:29] Allerd: For my Gretuck tribe the trading post is sacred, we do not attack those who come to trade and ring the bell for trade, for us it has always been this way

[10:30] Alena Ramona: This is true to a point, but just like with panthers Taluna are a “know your audience” situation. There isn’t actually that much to go on about Taluna in the books, and as a result we’ve had to fill in the blanks in SL. – to Jonas. To Allerd, yes, as I’ve explained to Angel before…Ge panthers and btb panthers see eye to eye on this specific topic. Exchange points are practically sacred. If you break the peace at one expect to be hated by every panther that hears about it.

[10:33] StarrCooper: 2 points sorry.. What is the falllout if groups repeatedly violate the trade points and 2) Is thee any way to try get trades back realistic.. I get tired of people offering double gold tarns to buy a fish hook or jewelled crowsn.. Its hard to want to trade when you dont know if OOC you gonna be looked after if people are toxic and 2) people have no idea about gorean money

[10:37] Alena Ramona: whew, that’s a lot at once. So for Starr…. You have to simply let people be people to a point. Too much micromanagement by admins OOC can be damaging. If someone is just shooting at the traders that’s one thing, and even then you can always be polite to people that seem like they’re being an ass. They may not know. Patience is really key, patience and educating the playerbase.

[10:38] Alena Ramona: As for goods well…you can just try to help them but you must remember, Starr, that there is a certain degree of ignorance ICly among panthers. Some panthers cannot read…and some do not know the value of things.

[10:38] Alena Ramona: That is as much an RP as anything else sometimes

[10:41] Regina7876: For me it would be nice if we could have more classes year around. I know that there is place but not if its used. Ge in some places is out of control. I think its up to each home to teach their new people about money and honor and other things of Gor. My question is could a list be made of BTB and GE homes that welcome trade and trade by Panthers ?

[10:42] EvaCarissa Neiro: Regarding Starr’s comment, I think you can try to explain things to the players who are bothering you, but it’s true that some don’t want to listen or simply want to cause trouble. My advice is to try to resolve it through dialogue. If they don’t listen, you can go to the moderators, and if that doesn’t work either, simply distance yourself from those who aren’t respecting your roleplay. You choose who you interact with. My question is: Is it expected that everyone at trading points will be armed and that merchants will have warriors or mercenaries for protection? Or is that seen as a threat?

[10:42] Alena Ramona: Regina: Most of the lack of information is simply part of the bleedout of the playerbase of Gor. Many of the things you’re talking about have been done before, but fallen out of practice. Someone has to take the initiative to make that list and keep it updated. The people that did that don’t generally play that much anymore.

[10:43] Alena Ramona: Eve: That is a GREAT question, and yes, weapons should be expected especially at the wilder exchange points. It is conceivable that people have to get to and from that exchange point. Merchant law only protects while they are trading and not the travel there and back, obviously. Armed guards should be expected, and that’s also very good advice for moderation. Again, patience is the key.

[10:45] Aηɢeʟ Kereꜱ Blades (angelkeres.nightwish) shouts: You might be asking yourself, If there is risk to trading with Panthers, why do it? The main reasons I have found are:
– Trade for unique items
– Find new, sustainable sources of common items
– Increase your customer base

[10:46] Alena Ramona: And Captives, captives, captives…even if they are rare these days!

[10:47] Aηɢeʟ Kereꜱ Blades (angelkeres.nightwish) shouts: Need is not the top priority in trade, being topped out by safety, timing, and existing (dis)agreements at times. A trade might be denied with a certain individual or fail part way through due to many factors.
– Intended or Unintended insults or threats. This should not need too much explaining. If this happens, the trade will like end.

– Outside Interference. Trade Docks are often close to a traveled path, which could bring randomness. Panthers will respect the trade of others while it happens, but other incidents can happen nearby.
[10:47] Aηɢeʟ Kereꜱ Blades (angelkeres.nightwish) shouts: >Types of goods offered. Panthers trade for necessities of life. When preparing for winter, luxury items such as chocolates, candies and black wine are passed up for non perishable foods, fuel, spices and salt. More mature huntresses are less likely to trade for luxury items and seeing them offered to entice, could be an insult.

– Value of items offered are not equal, insulting. Unacceptable trade options.

if they feel they are not being treated fairly, it could open to more negotiation, however if they feel it severely off-balanced, the entire trade could be terminated.

[10:52] Morrigancalhoun Resident: (=>en) I see many members of the GMA here and they always say that a war or where someone comes from should not damage the trade and every trade will be fair, ok the GMA is still known in the south of GOR, but it is slowly becoming known in the north of GOR, I am also a member of the GMA myself and yes, I think if the GMA comes more and more to the north, the trade with panthers / talunas will also improve.

[10:53] Aηɢeʟ Kereꜱ Blades (angelkeres.nightwish): Agreed Morrigan. The Gorean Merchants Association has done a lot to bring the south together. We are slowly spreading more North.

[10:53] Rarius Yuroki (yuroki.uriza): Simple question: would Panthers accept coins? I mean real coins in roleplay, not OOC hud coins? Or do they only exchange goods for goods?

[10:54] Morrigancalhoun Resident: (=>en) Rarius Yuroki (yuroki.uriza) I think it can be different for each camp, my camp will accept it

[10:55] Alena Ramona: Oooh Rarius I like this question – so this might be the most asked question I get in regards to panther traditions and trading. YES PANTHERS WILL ACCEPT AND USE COIN! That said, panthers in the books did so, Hura was paid in gold by both Tyros and Marlenus. It is pretty clear panthers are enticed by coin, but that we often prefer trade goods or opportunities to spend that coin when they become available. I have heard many times that panthers do not use coin, but this is inconsistent with book references.

[10:55] Alena Ramona: Remember to use your head. If you’re giving up half your camp’s supplies for coin? That’s probably a terrible idea. Moderation.

[10:56] Bea Lael (lifepath) smiled and stands up after she is called on. “Thank you. I once was a part of a city that had a good trade point with Panthers. There were three Panthers and while I was trying to conduct the trade with them, one of the warrior’s slaves, of my former city started yelling out insults to all of the Panther women. She kept taunting them, called them names, and other things. This made the Panthers upset and they yelled back at the slave. Tensions began to rise. I had to pause the trade talk and looked back at the warrior whom was supposed to be protection during the trade. He also did not tell his slave to shut up. He just stood there, and laughed a few times. It was disgusting. I asked him. ” Sir, Could you please tell your slave to stop talking? She is insulting the Panthers and making them angry?’ Guess what he said to me. He said, “Well, ok you can do this by yourself,” And he left me with the three Panthers by myself as he walked off with his slave. It was ridiculous. But thankfully at the time, there was an honorable warrior of that same city whom just so happen to log in moments later. He saw I was by myself near three armed Panthers and immediately went down to the trade area to offer me at least some protection and stood there as a guard for me. After the slave had been pulled off by her owner, the Panthers calmed down and the trade talks continued. I was very grateful that the other honorable warrior was with me during that moment. After the trade agreement, the Panthers got in their boats with what they received and sailed away. So that entire situation could have gone very bad for me had that other warrior’s slave still been there and taunting the Panthers, thankfully I spoke out against it. Though it did, surprisingly cause one of the warriors of my former city walk off. He chose to allow his unruly slave to run off at the mouth and did not control her. It was a wild situation, and glad no battle took place. Thank you for the time.”

[10:57] Alena Ramona: as a note on the coin thing: this also assumes that panthers would have access to areas where they could freely spend coin without being stripped and collared for it…

[10:59] Aηɢeʟ Kereꜱ Blades (angelkeres.nightwish): Thank you for sharing that story Bea. I think the idea of taunting panthers with words is a pastime for some. Too many don’t understand the consequences. Even if they are behind a wall when it was said. You will not always behind that wall. There are consequences for your actions. That was the first rule I was taught coming to Gor. Watch what you say and do. It can come back to you.
[11:00] Alena Ramona: Bea, Okay so, that was a long story. Digesting that takes time, and it sounds like a situation that has a lot of moving parts. Sadly, and this is not to accuse anyone, sometimes I notice that free women and slaves get a little jealous when men step away from them to interact with panther women. This is understandable to a point, or they just want to be involved and usually can’t so they do things like this themselves. Men tend to get overwhelmed with nonsense, especially warriors, and can become short tempered if that lasts all day long. I think that’s a good example of de-escalation but he should have punished his slave – not for insulting outlaws, but for being obnoxious and speaking out of turn. Slaves sometimes get away with near murder nowadays and we wouldn’t have tolerated it in Old Gor.

^{Veck Sa’ng Fori – An exchange point near Helmutsport.}

[11:02] Aηɢeʟ Kereꜱ Blades (angelkeres.nightwish): we will hear from Jessika next, and a lot more are lining up. If your question does not pertain to what I am saying, I am happy to stay as long as needed afterwards to answer everyone.

[11:02] Jessika Roberts (jessikaroberts): I don’t want to hold up the presentation, so you can skip me if you wish. I was wondering about a comment you made earlier, however, saying that most Panther bands are GE these days. Why do you think that is? In light of that, how does a band being either GE or BtB change the way they handle trade?

[11:05] Khi (tamaraward): Just a reminder that Panther Girls are only ONE of the dangers of traveling the Northern Forests. It is a *journey* to get to them from any populated cities of the south except perhaps Lydius which is on the border and a few scattered others. Remember this. There are leech plants, ost, lar, Forest Urts of Unusual Size, and many other things that can make your journey there exciting.

[11:06] Khi, This is more of a comment but it’s very true. The northern forests are dangerous and too many people often act like they’re going on vacation when they show up in my forest. You’re not. You’re in hell. The northern forest is the largest untamed frontier on the face of Gor…remember that.

[11:09] StarrCooper: My question is if people do abuse the trade points and we cant get a mod on right away to settle things is it a case of the old HTML days of submitting a log then everyone being in Limbo… Because I am not wanting to go back to trade points being shot at it by bored bands of city folk and then spending my limited time waiting for somthing to be jusged or ruled or enforced

[11:10] Alena Ramona: Okay so that’s a good question starr- but that shouldnt’ come up very often. Even the most die hard GE pew pewer (no offense to our GE cousins ) usually has respect for people trading. Generally only the new players do this, so if you have problems with a player when no mod is around simply address it calmly, and if your RP is getting ruined, just switch to away or OOC and ignore the pew and cut them out of your scene. Remember the writing is the most important thing, not the visuals, and we as players all decide what the story is.

[11:11] Alena Ramona: If someone is doing something that you think is egregiously out of line with your story then simply delete them from it. That simple.

[11:12] Alena Ramona: That said, you should always try to solve things with them first amicably, nd remember to be polite. Not everyone has the same philosophy about Gor and if you want your own thoughts and traditions to be respected you need to respect how others’ play too. Zandrae – honestly? Some do, some don’t. My band couldn’t care less – we keep track of what we have in our heads and on notecards. However, other bands love it!

[11:12] Alena Ramona: For us, we dont’ think any of it is necessary and we just use normal prim props during trade and try to keep it realistic to what we have.

[11:15] Domi (dominiquecallypso): I have to wonder at tmes why is it that it has to be just ge or btb cant people learn to get along trade play make whole stories roleplay is more a trade of our words and minds .. is this logical

[11:17] Alena Ramona: Well, okay, firstly I’ve done plenty of trades with GE panthers and our band has had plenty of stories with GE panthers. Usually that’s the ones that mesh with our style a little more fluidly than others, which is mostly longform para RP with a focus on immersion and realism. Others have their own styles they enjoy, a faster style, and there’s merits to that too. I would say this to all the cities of the world: btb panthers and GE panthers have always gotten along to some degree. This isn’t an us problem ::P This is more of a city problem, and I think that the city sims could stand to learn a lot about how panthers treat each other OOCly despite disparate views on what the RP should look like. There is always an inroad somewhere, and as long as both groups try to respect each other it should be fine.

[11:18] Alena Ramona: To elaborate quickly so we can move on: That means don’t do things you know the other group disapproves of…right in front of them. Don’t make fun of each other. It’s okay to discuss things and make suggestions but…stay in that middle ground and you can have a fun RP.

[11:20] Alena Ramona: Okay to address this – then solve it amongst yourselves. Talk to other GE people…we have requirements to do meter combat on our sim. It is strict. It is by consent, and it works. Sure, it’s slower, but that’s one option. The GE groups on the continent need to solve this problem together or it will never stick. anyway, let Angel move on please, we have limited time and we want to get to more content

[11:21] Aηɢeʟ Kereꜱ Blades (angelkeres.nightwish) shouts: There is a common procedure for all trade docks with five steps.

1. Initiation. Ringing the bell at a trade dock indicates your desire to speak with the band. Both side respect and rely on the safety given; neither side are to use or threaten weapons from the time the bell is rung until both parties depart safely.

2. Greeting. Respect and tolerances for each other’s differences must be maintained. Trade with an unknown is a risk, giving your name and where you live helps to break the ice. Typically one person from each side will do the introductions and nearly all the talking for the negotiation. This can help to keep down confusion when there is a large group gathered.

3. Negotiation. During the entire process, each party will stand to either side, keeping a visual separation of the two groups. The first meetings with each camp will spend some time investigating what valuable things might be available. Negotiations are handled with the familiar back and forth, finding a happy ground.

4. Exchange of
[11:21] Aηɢeʟ Kereꜱ Blades (angelkeres.nightwish) shouts: goods. When an agreeable quantity of goods is proffered by each side, The exchange of goods is made as soon as feasible due to, the constant flow of events in the forests.

5. Departure. After the exchange of good and pleasantries, both parties will exit the trade dock area. Those present for the trade have safe passing back to camp or to their departing ship.

[11:26] Quantum Vortex: There are book references to do them doing exactly that – or disguising as slaves, though no self respecting panther girl would admit to the latter:P

[11:26] Aηɢeʟ Kereꜱ Blades (angelkeres.nightwish): Panthers will disguise themselves. In fact I’ve seen some at the fair in disguise. You probably wouldn’t know unless they told you.

[11:26] Domi (dominiquecallypso): Thats not true I recently by mistake dropped into a btb city and had to fight my way out hardly any rp and it was fight on I was called a outlaw a criminal a slave.. am I a panther yes and no I am a Norsewoman in the valkryies..

[11:27] Domi (dominiquecallypso): I had on very little and in the end had to run for my saftey

[11:30] Alena Ramona: Tal Carrot and that’s exactly right. My entire band was instructed to mostly stay in disguise. Do as you all like, of course. Ah…on the subject of automatically smelling people in disguise I literally had this happen to me yesterday. I calmly explained that it wasn’t appropriate and I even made a friend in the process. Not everyone fully thinks out things before they act. As to being ejected well…that seems harsh. Too harsh.

[11:31] Alena Ramona: Well it’s put simply as: roleplayers are actors. Put yourself in the moment as if you were really there and use logic from there. You’re not a mind reader. They don’t really have a tag above their head. Feel free to ask questions, but that’s a disguise issue not so much a trading one. Perhaps cities could benefit from not automatically trying to send a thousand guards on panthers trading at their exchange point? :) I’ve seen that happen.

[11:31] Aηɢeʟ Kereꜱ Blades (angelkeres.nightwish) shouts: Next more specific trade items will be covered. The entire range of items might not apply to every camp as local resources are different. Think about what you would expect to find for trade from panthers. I will give you a few moments before I share my list. You can shout out some ideas if you like.

[11:34] Aηɢeʟ Kereꜱ Blades (angelkeres.nightwish) shouts: Common Trade Items available

Panther bands rarely produce goods; instead, they raid, scavenge, or capture what they later trade.
1. Captured Men. Certain men might be hunted or taken captive if determined to be a threat. These men might be
ransomed, exchanged, or sold to slavers. Sometimes, men are kept as slaves; most panther camps are tended to by female slaves.
2. Animal Products. Anything of value in the forest might be brought for trade, including animal goods. From animals, you can find pelts, furs, bones, claws and teeth. The meat of animals hunted is kept to feed the camp.
3. Plant Products. Plants for both culinary and medicinal uses, unique to the area.
4. Weapons. Bows, knives, quivers, and arrows taken from patrols or travelers may be kept or traded for supplies. The larger, bladed weapons such as swords, axes, and halberds are traded to melt down for arrowheads
5. Loot. Raids on Caravans, other panther camps and travelers bring in portable yet valuable items, keeping what is useful and trading
[11:34] Aηɢeʟ Kereꜱ Blades (angelkeres.nightwish) shouts: the rest. These items include
– Cloth
– Jewelry
– Tools
– Small trade goods
6. Information. Knowledge of forest paths, outlaw movements, or caravan routes might be given in trade where the threat is zero or minimal to them. Safe passage or warnings may also be offered in exchange for goods. This might walk a fine line of suggesting the panthers need assistance and risk offending.

[11:36] Alena Ramona: Stuff to bring for panthers: Salt, Flour, Sugar, fresh knives or knife blades, arrow heads, tools, good boots, wine or other drinks, FOOD! vegetables are difficult to grow under the canopy. The northern forest is not renderable in SL; it should have the most ginormous trees you’ve seen in your life with a canopy that shadows the floor, and nothing but ferns and such otherwise.

[11:37] Khi (tamaraward): I do not in any way mean to sound obtuse, but from a roleplaying perspective, how are Panther Girls melting down iron and steel in the forest for arrow and spearheads please?

[11:39] Alena Ramona: You don’t, she means to trade TO the panthers, not receive from. A character with a background of mine could do it, but doesn’t do it simply because of the fuel cost and the time it would take to setup a makeshift forge capable of it. That’s why we tend to trade for those. Now, sometimes, panthers could have access to village outposts or open forge areas in rare circumstances, but even then they’d need to know what they’re doing and often will not.

[11:39] Alena Ramona: Steel requires heat that can’t really be done outside of a city, but working precious metals for making jewelry and things like that would be common. You can do that over a fire in a clay kiln.

[11:40] Alena Ramona: When panthers make our own spearheads/arrowheads they are often made from stone or copper

[11:43] Aηɢeʟ Kereꜱ Blades (angelkeres.nightwish): Yes, those would be luxury items, some have already been mentioned, usually they include:
– Cookies
– Candies
– Chocolates
– Black Wine

[11:43] Alena Ramona: That is so true, and that’s why I keep coming back to: Panthers are varied. Many panthers in SL and in the books are very different from the others. We share some similar traditions but we can also have wildly different opinions on things. This…is actually btb.

[11:44] Alena Ramona: Black wine is like, really really really expensive. No panther should be able to get it and if they do get it you should make a big deal out of it because it’s like getting the most rare wine you’ve ever seen and maybe sharing it with your friends

[11:45] Alena Ramona: if you’re waking up and making blackwine every morning you’re rich enough to not be a panther and well yeah. The pothead growers were funny, but…well….that’s a whole different topic.

[11:46] Aηɢeʟ Kereꜱ Blades (angelkeres.nightwish) shouts: I have a few items, things to remember when trading. Our time is running low, but any wishing to stay late, there will be a demonstration of a trade and then Alena, Tara, En of the Sa’ne Asoka, and myself will be available for questions.

[11:47] Aηɢeʟ Kereꜱ Blades (angelkeres.nightwish) shouts: When you are meeting a Panther for the very first time, expect suspicion. You might receive extra questions about intentions, or origins. This is not a sign of being unwelcome but to verify the validity of your claims.

if you are eager to do trade, balance tolerance and respect for each other.

A variety of option for trade include coin, barter, information and future favors. Creativity wins out.

Threats of collars are taken very seriously,

Panthers often pay a little more for certain commonplace goods, a premium.

Furs can generally be got cheaper from panthers who are more eager to get goods than, say, a male furrier working out of a city.

[11:48] Alena Ramona: Note for all: If you goto a panther’s exchange point, call them down, threaten to collar them, offer no trade, and the panthers beat you up in that rare case it happens? Don’t be surprised. Using the exchange point as your shield to throw insults isn’t going to work. There is a line to these things, and if nothing else they’d drag you away from it before beating you up.

[11:51] Jessika Roberts (jessikaroberts): What if I need to ask the Panthers for information? Should I also go to the trade bell?

[11:53] Sly (sylvia.hawks): The tradepoint is used for both parties beneficial. And thus usually honored. As with anything in life, when it looses that purpose.. Things get more tense. If you negotiate information, with a good offered deal to pay next time… Thats perfect.
[11:54] Sly (sylvia.hawks): In my experience.. Free women or men always carry something of worth… Expect to leave without your boots… for the sake of roleplay, and return for more information and better payment…..next time :)

[11:54] Alena Ramona: information can be the most valuable thing to us at times. Not all panthers are abandoned when they disappear, and sometimes knowing what happened to them for sure is at least valuable in itself so we know where information leaks “go”

^{Panther of Gor}

[11:55] Aηɢeʟ Kereꜱ Blades (angelkeres.nightwish) shouts: We will do a quick demonstration of a trade. We have Sato and Jonas to volunteer. Can you please come to the yellow rug in front of me?

[11:56] Jonas Daviau: arrives at the dock unarmed, his heart pounding, fear knotted in his chest, perhaps for the first time. The wood creaks beneath his steps, the wind carrying the scent of salt and the unknown. He hesitates for a moment, then reaches out. The bell rings, clear in the silence. He stands there, motionless, waiting… torn between doubt and something stronger that refuses to let him turn away.
[11:59] ᴀɪʏᴀɴᴀ ᴍᴀᴄ ᴀ’ ʟÌᴏꜱ (aiyanacae) heard the bell ring through the wind, causing her to pause for a moment. Glancing around to her other sisters as they were doing their own little things, she’d grumble and stand up making her way to the trading docks.

Once arriving, she spotted the large man. Jonas, taking in his features before speaking “Tal there, you rang?” Despite seeming somewhat uninterested before him and lazy, she was cautious after all.

[12:01] Jonas Daviau: Tal… he says politely, bowing his head. I was told you hold a slave I wish to reclaim. I am willing to pay the price. In return, I can offer something you may find to your liking… black wine, among other things.

[12:05] ᴀɪʏᴀɴᴀ ᴍᴀᴄ ᴀ’ ʟÌᴏꜱ (aiyanacae) allowed her fingers to tap against her thigh whilst her eyes never leaving him, after all despite the safety of trade. Still anything could happen after all, and despite her calm exterior and the smile she wore. Her heart beating rapidly within her chest, excitement perhaps?

After that she heard the reasoning to his visit and what he was asking for, she would ponder for a moment allowing her thoughts to align before breaking her own silence with a slight grin toying against her lips, “Oh? ..A slave you say?”..She would pause for a brief moment before continuing, “Many slaves come and go, what assures you that she is still with us and not sold off?” She was trying to pick at where he got his information from, perhaps something she can tell her sisters to be wary off. A village, city or a neighboring band that spilled out information.

[12:08] Jonas Daviau: lowly raises his hands, palms open in a calm, non-threatening gesture, his tone measured. “A boy, as you say… tall, long blond hair. He bears a scar across his face. He is meant to answer for what he has done in the city… to be judged and punished for his misdeeds.” He inclines his head slightly, voice steady. “It is a burden I would take from you… along with a cask of fine black wine… and a plunder worthy of pirates.”

[12:13] ᴀɪʏᴀɴᴀ ᴍᴀᴄ ᴀ’ ʟÌᴏꜱ (aiyanacae) listened quietly in that very moment, only to lift her right hand up to tap lightly at her chin a few times pondering some more over the offer of black wine, and a plunder of worthy pirates?

Aiyana lowers her hand and laughs in that very moment, “You offer black wine, as if it is nothing to you. Yet it is quite costly, only to punish this said boy with blond hair and a scar” She shakes her head and said once more, “Again, I repeat. What makes you think we have him?”..This trade started to seem somewhat fishy to her, was he really offering black wine quite openly. Was it poisoned perhaps?…Still she was not dumb enough to leap forward to such a ridiculous trade.

[12:18] Jonas Daviau: smiles faintly, though his posture remains cautious, hands still open and steady. “Outlaw friends of mine raided this place not long ago… the same ones who struck the city. They told me you had taken him.” His gaze stays calm, watching her reaction. At her words about the black wine, his smile deepens just a touch. “That… is my trade. I deal in good things.” A slight tilt of his head, almost amused. “do you know the Greetuk ? Ask them if she does not enjoy it.”

[12:21] Jonas Daviau: And it is also my job to raid their lair.”

[12:25] ᴀɪʏᴀɴᴀ ᴍᴀᴄ ᴀ’ ʟÌᴏꜱ (aiyanacae) listened once more to when he had spoken, thinking over the offer he had given her but still she was slightly skeptical about it to say the least.

Aiyana then said, “Gretuk? …I have no ties with them, so sadly it doesn’t concern me if they like it or not”..She shrugs, before continuing “Tell you what, do you have a dagger or something better I can wield. Then consider the trade complete. Black wine doesn’t really interest me or my band to say the least”

[12:28] Jonas Daviau: lets out a quiet sigh, keeping his composure, though beads of sweat form on his forehead, hinting at slight irritation. “Allow me to set down my pack.” He kneels, opens it, and pulls out a dagger set with precious stones, the blade catching the light. “Taken from the Head of the Physicians…” he adds with a faint, teasing smirk. “Does that interest you?”

[12:30] ᴀɪʏᴀɴᴀ ᴍᴀᴄ ᴀ’ ʟÌᴏꜱ (aiyanacae) waited for a response now, while her eyes fixated on him. She had hoped, he had what she asked for. Then watched as he pulled out a dagger that did look quite shiny and pretty.

She should ask for something more productive perhaps, but she took a liking to it. Only to nod her head, “Works for me, a moment” She would turn and head away from him, disappearing for a while before returning with the said captive/slave. She would push him forward onto the trading docks and said, “This your slave?”..She smirks.

[12:34] Jonas Daviau: studies the slave with a faint frown, masking the satisfaction beneath his calm expression. The description matches… perfectly. He steps closer, slow and deliberate, eyes scanning every detail before settling on the man’s face. “Is it you… Stormy?” he asks quietly. He tilts his head slightly, voice steady but firm. “Open your mouth.” A brief pause, then, more pointed, “I was told you’re missing a front tooth… lost in a tavern fight in Port of Kar.” His gaze sharpens, watching for the smallest reaction, measuring truth in silence as much as in words.

[12:35] Alena Ramona: Note how that went; it could have gone south pretty fast, she could have accepted the blackwine and maybe traded it later, but that takes time and effort. She chose the thing she needed in that moment – a very very fine dagger. It would probably make other panthers jealous if it was as nice as Jonas said.

[12:39] Jessika Roberts (jessikaroberts) looks at Alena and smiles. “My main question is … why are there so few BtB Panther bands compared to the number of GE bands?”

[12:40] Khi (tamaraward): Comment. Other thing to consider when venturing into the Northern Forests… Sound and Time. Please consider adding these things into your roleplay. Most of you probably sound like bosk stampeding through a tavern on a busy night. If Panther Girls are in the vicinity at all, chances are they have known you were coming from a very long way away. Consider they will have varied experiences, but how often would you see a stalking larl in the forest if you were looking for it? Consider the environment please. Alena’s use of smoke signals for the trade posts are excellent. They can be seen from farther away. It is possible they are near. It is possible they are not. You may need to wait IC to trade for some time though that can, obviously, be short-handed in the lead up to the exchange to get into the story together. Thank you.

[12:41] Alena Ramona: So this is a great question I think deserves some consideration. The truth is, a lot of panther practices in GE bands, at least in the recent past, have been just as btb as many btb panther bands. The difference really comes down to the fact there’s been some myths perpetuated that all panthers are naturally “GE” – I think this is a seriously large misconception based on the fact panthers are empowered women written into the books. That is not what GE means, and I think the differences have led to more panther bands choosing to start in GE so they can do more things. There’s another factor; btb bands tend to deal more with city warriors invading them and the RP surrounding that. It tends to be longer form, and longer term on captures. Sometimes, those panthers get invested in the capture and don’t return. When that happens enough and especially too early in a btb band’s development it can lead to the band collapsing because “no one is around” while everyone is captured. That’s why.

[12:42] Alena Ramona: GE tends to have faster cycles on those situations which leads to them surviving a lot more reliably as a result. There are more rules and limitations involved where as btb panther bands tend to just go with a more realistic flow from the books; and in that case it is hard to justify getting home again.

[12:43] Alena Ramona: This isn’t to say either is right or wrong, just that this contributes to a group surviving and having RP in camp/on sim enough to keep players interested in continuing to play there.
[12:44] Alena Ramona: Oh, and what Khi said is spot on. I also didn’t come up with the smoke signals, that is from Shiva members/founders at it’s founding long before I got left in charge but it is a great idea I try to perpetuate.

[12:45] Jessika Roberts (jessikaroberts) nods at your words. “I encountered a Panther band that had a very strict three-day limit on captures. A captured Panther absolutely HAD to be returned within three days. If the Panther refused to return after three days, even if it was because she was roleplaying out the capture realistically, she was considered to have abandoned the band. I think that rule was a bit harsh, if you ask me.”

[12:45] Aηɢeʟ Kereꜱ Blades (angelkeres.nightwish) shouts: We’ve had so many good questions and comments today. I would like to wrap it up since we are way over time. Thank you everyone so very much for coming and participating, it made it a lot of fun and a lot more personal to all you.

[12:46] Alena Ramona: So remember, that’s a guideline. It feels bad to “release” anyone because it doesn’t feel in tune with the books to do it as a regular practice. that 3 day release could simply be you setting up a situation where they can escape logically, instead. You don’t have to follow things exactly as they are written, just in the spirit of it.

^{(Sim: Rive de Bois)}

War council between the leaders of different armed groups before their joint march to the Oasis of Klima. On the left, hired men of the Black Caste, dressed in very dark clothing, in the middle at the back, the man in the red turban is Boundy, the leader of the army of Belnend, and some of his warriors; in the front, in brown clothing, are Zagan Bararaq ibn Yuroki, the son of Rarius Yuroki, and others, as well as some free women who are listening curiously.

Confidential meeting with Turjann Sa’iyr, Pahsa of Kurtzal, Trygg Tyran, Ambassador of the Oasis of Two Scimitars, and Rarius Yuroki, merchant of the Oasis of Lame Kaiila.

A meeting of the Gorean Merchant Association (GMA) in Lara.

After the Lysander was taken to the secret shipyard near Selnar, Rarius Yuroki sailed back to the port city once more. Negotiations began regarding both the treaty Selnar had concluded with the Southern Trade Alliance and Selbar’s membership in the STA. Discussions continued late into the night.